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04-23-2007, 07:41 PM
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#21
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4 Rivet Member
2000 34' Limited S/O
Greensboro
, North Carolina
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 374
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Gas prices
Don't forget that there is a significant tax built in to the price of gas! We can't forget to thank our government officials for taking more of our money.
__________________
2000 34' Limited with Sofa Slide
06 Dodge 3500 Cummins Turbodiesel 4X4 Quad Cab Hensley Hitch Pressure Pro Centramatics
WBCCI #4358
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04-24-2007, 07:39 AM
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#22
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Rivet Master
1973 27' Overlander
Currently Looking...
Jupiter
, Florida
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,060
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Here in Minnesota they are planning on 10-cents a gallon increased fuel tax "to help with highway maintenance" - I think it's because less fuel is being used so less tax revenue being collected; and that is on top of the mandatory ethanol which increases volume sold "per-gallon" taxes collected since ethanol is a 15% mileage deduction.
The refining capacity & futures market is real - at an individual level the diffusion of responsibility is so great it is exceeding the natural order human scale of comprehension. If supply exceeds demand prices would drop so supply has been maintained on the narrowest of margins...
__________________
The days are short and the night is long and the stars go tumbling by.. . ~Airstream~
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04-24-2007, 10:13 AM
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#23
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Rivet Master
Vintage Kin Owner
1977 31' Excella 500
Berkeley Springs
, West Virginia
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,637
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WV just raised their gas tax 7 cents per gallon Jan. 1 for the same reason; people are driving a whole lot less due to the high fuel prices and so the state wasn't bringing in the revenue that they were before. So, in their infinite wisdom, they raised taxes.
I thought the reason diesel used to always be cheaper than gasoline was because it takes less refining. Octane isn't a magic thing you pour in, but it takes higher levels of refinement of the basic product to get the octane ratings to increase. That's why 93 costs more than 87. But why is diesel now higher than regular? Is it because its an "industrial" fuel and it has to be bought to "keep the wheels turning?" The wheels of society? Less discretionary use of diesel than gasoline and so "they've got us?"
Other than cabinetry and other interior appointments, why are the Airstreams of today so much heavier than those of 30-40 years ago? I know they put a real frame under them now, but that should only equate to a few hundred pounds...
__________________
- Jim
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04-24-2007, 01:48 PM
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#24
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4 Rivet Member
2007 25' Safari FB SE
Blaine
, Washington
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 291
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Here in NW Wa. state regular is at $3.25 a gallon while Diesel is at $2.95 a gallon. We live about 20 miles from a refrinery. Elsewhere in the state regular is under $3.00 per gallon. The Governor just announced that the state is starting an investigation as to why the price varies so much within the state and, sometimes, within 50 miles. Should be interesting.
John
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04-24-2007, 03:16 PM
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#25
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Tom, the Uber Disney Fan
2006 30' Safari
Orlando
, Florida
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,693
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bikrmikey
In Europe there are tiny economy cars pulling sizeable travel trailers. Why are our trailers so heavy? Even a current Airstream is heavy. Look at the weight of the 50s Airstream trailers, do we need the extra weight today? Many of the 50s trailers are still around.
Of course I drive a gas engine and have a somewhat heavy Airstream so I better not cast the first stone.
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Not to pick on you Mike, but do you think Airstream buyers today would settle for an Airstream that doesn't have a gray water tank? What about a 10 gallon fresh water tank? Do you think they could get by with a goffer hole in a camp ground? Would they settle for a gaucho instead of a queen island bed in that Classic's bedroom? Would a pipe frame pass safety inspection today? Would a buyer today buy an Airstream without A/C? What about a converter or batteries? What about a two burner stove instead of a three? Would you buy a new Airstream without a microwave oven? What about only two overhead storage bins? Would you want a smaller 'fridge? Would you give up carpet for vinyl tile floors? Would a single gas cylinder be enough for your camping needs?
Now these questions weren't directed toward Mike specifically. He just happened breach the question about why today's Airstreams weigh more than those of the 1960's did. I am glad mine does. And I can assure you my wife does more than I do and she was an accountant in her previous career.
I think corporate greed in general is responsible for high gas prices as well as government greed. The stock holders aren't going to complain with the board or with the CEO and Chairman as long as profits are high. The government isn't going to complain as long as tax revenues are high...or maintenance expenses are lower because of fewer miles driven on highways. There is no incentive on either side for lower prices. The general population has no leverage because we have no where else to turn for automobiles. If things were as bad energy wise as we are told, some country somewhere would have an alternative. I can't believe there is a conspiracy that is that big that some country can't break out of the mold and fix it for themselves.
__________________
2006 30' Safari - "Changes in Latitudes"
2008 F-250 Lariat Power Stroke Diesel Crew Cab SWB
Family of Disney Fanatics
WBCCI# 4821
https://streaminacrossamerica.com/
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04-24-2007, 04:34 PM
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#26
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3 Rivet Member
2006 28' Safari SE
Winter Park
, Florida
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 150
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I'm in Orlando - the gas station charging $3.99/gal is out near the tourist attractions/airport, where a lot of folks just seem to pull in and fill up without even looking at the price. There are also a lot of foreign tourists who may think $4 is not too bad. After the story was on the news last night, though, I wouldn't be surprised if they dropped it a bit. It wasn't a flattering story - basically implied price gouging.
Typical price here is closer to $2.89.
I think the dramatic increases are the gas co's way of desensitizing us all to increasing prices - ever notice how it always seems to go up $1.00, come down $0.90, go up a $1.00, come down $0.90, and so on. It's not going to stop. Will just keep creeping up from here on.
Can you pull an Airstream with a Toyota Prius?
__________________
'06 28' Safari SE / '08 Chev 2500HD Duramax
'64 Me / '60's-ish wife / '90's kids / '06 Black Lab / '02 Poodle / oh, and a horse, too.
GO GATORS!!
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04-24-2007, 04:44 PM
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#27
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Aluminut
2004 25' Safari
.
, Illinois
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,477
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It's greed, it's lawmakers basically sitting on their brains and it's automakers only slowly adopting alternate methods of transportation. I wrote a few letters to my Federal Representitives and got nothing back but smoke and mirrors. Folks say the current administration is the cause, but both sides of the aisle are to blame, some more than others, but they are all guilty of squandering the oppportunites we've had. It becomes even more clear when you look at Brazil and E85. All automakers make E85 vehicles, try to find a gas station for it. Few and far between, plus E85 takes more resources to make than gas, and it's only moderately less exp than gasoline.
I'm a big GM fan, but I also will lay HUGE blame on GM for killing the EV1. Even folks that would never buy a GM car and were fortunate enough to get their hands on an EV1, loved those cars. What did GM do (and the rest of the EV car manfacs), they got crushed, and they were perfectly good.
Sure little of what I've discussed makes a big difference to folks like us that tow, but most of us don't tow everyday. For those of us that can use an electric, hybrid or plugin hybrid that was priced similar to that of a normal car, we could all do that, but it could be years before we see that happen if even then.
Bottom line I'm near my limit for fuel prices. Seems there are always reasons why it just happens to go up before a holiday or the summer driving season.
You want to see a somewhat slanted movie, go see Who Killed the Electric Car. Draw you're own conclusions.
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04-24-2007, 06:27 PM
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#28
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Rivet Master
1984 28' Funeral Coach
Belleview
, Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,635
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So little time and bandwidth today but I had to chime in on this thread. I fill my 60 gal. tank every other day or so as I travel and work out of Airstream One.
The way this price affects my bottom line is disasterous. I tried to travel smarter last summer when prices topped out. My sales showed. I've ditched some of my lower commission lines for newer higher commission lines and now have to travel more to introduce them. It's catch 22.
The only folks happy with all this are the oil men (know any in politics?) and the oil company stock holders.
Profit is not a dirty word... but windfall profits at the expense of the lower and middle class of America will sooner or later have a backlash.
I'm already thinking of a Sprinter but the ROI will take some time over my paid for classic.
__________________
Glen Coombe AIR #8416
1984 28' Funeral Coach
Former Rolling Showroom & PuttLab (now party bus)
"I'm not an expert. But I did sleep in an Airstream last night."
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04-24-2007, 06:31 PM
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#29
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Rivet Master
1971 25' Tradewind
1993 34' Excella
Currently Looking...
Estancia
, New Mexico
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,742
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I paid about $4 last summer in Yellowstone. To me that seemed like gouging when you cross over the park line and it's $1 cheaper. By the way there is a federal website to report gouging.
But it's not all bad. If high prices reduce use that's good. If low income people can't afford the gas to get to their minimum wage job, that's bad. If municipalities have more tax money in their coffers to provide services thats good too.
__________________
Sail on silver girl. Sail on by. Your time has come to shine.
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04-24-2007, 07:01 PM
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#30
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Rivet Master
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,486
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Some radom thoughts
I have been hearing about "price gouging" and "corporate greed" since the first spike in oil prices in 1973. If someone offers a product at a price, and someone else agrees to that price, then - and you have to follow this closely - BOTH parties end up better off (or at least they THINK they are better off, which is not always the same thing). If YOU get the government to fix the price so that you can have both more of their product and more of your money, then you are yourself acting from greed.
The cost to produce something does not, in itself, determine the price. If it did Bill Gates would never have become a billionaire.
A corporation cannot be greedy, only people can be greedy. And we all are, aren't we? Have you ever heard of anyone who told an employer/customer that they could do the job for 20% less? Or told a plumber, electrician, RV repairman that they'd be glad to pay more than was asked? Or ever returned any unspent money to a pension fund?
The poster who claimed that no new US refineries have been built in 20 years is quite wrong. It is over 35 years.
The Europeans have many jokes about how American's have only one cheese. They would probably joke about us having more than 100 different government-mandated gasoline formulations, but who would believe anything so ridiculous?
It could not have been easy, but in a single legislative act our government representatives have managed to drive up the price of fuel and the price of much of our food, increase our dependence on foreign oil, and increase government spending. Yes, ethanol mandates have done all of that.
Ethanol carries a $.50 per gallon subsidy from the Federal Government, more from some states. It still takes a bit more btu's of oil to grow, refine, and transport ethanol than the resulting ethanol contains. This is sometimes confused by comparing gallons to gallons: you can now get slightly more than a gallon of ethanol from a gallon of oil inputs, but ethanol has about 75% of the btu value per gallon. And the milk you drink, the eggs, hamburger and chicken you eat, the ice cream you splurge on, the bread you buy, plus many other foodstuffs, are all going up uP UP, thanks to ethanol mandates. The corn which goes to fuel is not available to feed to animals or people. Oh, and a few hundred thousand people will now be starving to death, but hey, it's not anyone I know.
Survey after survey has discovered extremely high interest in mass transportation projects. Follow up surveys have also discovered extremely low interest in people using it themselves. It appears that mass trasportation projects are believed by most people to be a good way to get everybody else off their road.
If oil company profits are so high, the easiest way to beat the game is to get in on it. Their stocks are available five days a week, either individually or through mutual funds. Yes, you too can become a filthy rich oil company owner and share in the obscene profits!
Mark
__________________
'85 Sovereign, 25'
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04-25-2007, 06:04 PM
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#31
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Rivet Master
Vintage Kin Owner
1977 31' Excella 500
Berkeley Springs
, West Virginia
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,637
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In my travels I have traveled on about every kind of public transportation known. They all su**ed. I will take private transportation over public any day of the week.
The goal should not be to reduce peoples' freedoms (aka restricted to "the bus"), but to retain or increase them with clean fuels.
OK, I'm going to have to buy a second Excella, cut and rivet them together and put them on a custom frame to make a super classic 50' motorhome and power it with a steam turbine driving electric traction motors. I'll still have 20' left to camp in. Back to the Future
__________________
- Jim
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04-25-2007, 07:01 PM
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#32
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2 Rivet Member
1971 18' Caravel
2004 25' International CCD
Bend
, Oregon
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnie's Mate
Not to pick on you Mike, but do you think Airstream buyers today would settle for an Airstream that doesn't have a gray water tank? What about a 10 gallon fresh water tank? Do you think they could get by with a goffer hole in a camp ground? Would they settle for a gaucho instead of a queen island bed in that Classic's bedroom? Would a pipe frame pass safety inspection today? Would a buyer today buy an Airstream without A/C? What about a converter or batteries? What about a two burner stove instead of a three? Would you buy a new Airstream without a microwave oven? What about only two overhead storage bins? Would you want a smaller 'fridge? Would you give up carpet for vinyl tile floors? Would a single gas cylinder be enough for your camping needs?
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Are you talking about the base camp? or the T@B? I wonder how sales are going for those trailers.
__________________
Mike Martin
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04-25-2007, 07:34 PM
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#33
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Rivet Master
2006 28' Safari SE
Currently Looking...
Colorado Springs
, Colorado
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 703
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Diesel dropped 2 pennies this week (Chandler, AZ)
My Loves truck stop off I-10 (Gila Reservation) was $2.85 now it is $2.83.
-Ken
__________________
4CU Charter Member
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04-25-2007, 09:30 PM
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#34
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
West of Fort Worth
, Texas
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,699
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Mark, thanks for pointing out the issues with ethanol and the lack of refineries. It's so easy to blame this group or that person.
I'm not an economist (or anything even close). It seems like fuel has pretty much kept pace with other goods over the course of the last 40 some years I've been aware of prices of goods. Maybe even risen at a slower pace.
Hmm - I wonder.....maybe we aren't as bad off as we thought?
Dave
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04-26-2007, 02:39 AM
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#35
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3 Rivet Member
2005 19' International CCD
T
, Oregon
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 203
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I agree.
I believe it is an unholy alliance between big oil and the environmental folks who prevent drilling in our own back yard.
No new refineries in 35 years.. Yes, that would restrict supply. Its tough to argue against that point.
No new drilling off the coast or in Alaska. Again, restriction of supply of domestic US oil...
Just think about it next time you vote...
Quote:
Originally Posted by j54mark
Some radom thoughts
I have been hearing about "price gouging" and "corporate greed" since the first spike in oil prices in 1973. If someone offers a product at a price, and someone else agrees to that price, then - and you have to follow this closely - BOTH parties end up better off (or at least they THINK they are better off, which is not always the same thing). If YOU get the government to fix the price so that you can have both more of their product and more of your money, then you are yourself acting from greed.
The cost to produce something does not, in itself, determine the price. If it did Bill Gates would never have become a billionaire.
A corporation cannot be greedy, only people can be greedy. And we all are, aren't we? Have you ever heard of anyone who told an employer/customer that they could do the job for 20% less? Or told a plumber, electrician, RV repairman that they'd be glad to pay more than was asked? Or ever returned any unspent money to a pension fund?
The poster who claimed that no new US refineries have been built in 20 years is quite wrong. It is over 35 years.
The Europeans have many jokes about how American's have only one cheese. They would probably joke about us having more than 100 different government-mandated gasoline formulations, but who would believe anything so ridiculous?
It could not have been easy, but in a single legislative act our government representatives have managed to drive up the price of fuel and the price of much of our food, increase our dependence on foreign oil, and increase government spending. Yes, ethanol mandates have done all of that.
Ethanol carries a $.50 per gallon subsidy from the Federal Government, more from some states. It still takes a bit more btu's of oil to grow, refine, and transport ethanol than the resulting ethanol contains. This is sometimes confused by comparing gallons to gallons: you can now get slightly more than a gallon of ethanol from a gallon of oil inputs, but ethanol has about 75% of the btu value per gallon. And the milk you drink, the eggs, hamburger and chicken you eat, the ice cream you splurge on, the bread you buy, plus many other foodstuffs, are all going up uP UP, thanks to ethanol mandates. The corn which goes to fuel is not available to feed to animals or people. Oh, and a few hundred thousand people will now be starving to death, but hey, it's not anyone I know.
Survey after survey has discovered extremely high interest in mass transportation projects. Follow up surveys have also discovered extremely low interest in people using it themselves. It appears that mass trasportation projects are believed by most people to be a good way to get everybody else off their road.
If oil company profits are so high, the easiest way to beat the game is to get in on it. Their stocks are available five days a week, either individually or through mutual funds. Yes, you too can become a filthy rich oil company owner and share in the obscene profits!
Mark
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04-26-2007, 02:50 AM
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#36
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4 Rivet Member
Currently Looking...
Yakima
, Washington
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 381
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Have you ever noticed (at least since 1975) we have a sortage of gas ,,,,but there is all you want if you want to pay 3.50 a gallon???? LISTEN FOLKS....gas prices are set by wall street speculators dealing in futures. If you don't believe that.....well...life will go on anyway.
I am going to buy a new Airstream and NEW truck,,,,and I am going to drive them anytime anywhere I want..even to the POOR HOUSE.
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04-26-2007, 04:21 AM
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#37
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Very american 4 a french
1971 27' Overlander
DUNKERQUE / FRANCE
, Nord
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 633
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hi the community;
Since a couple of years now, As I was really fed up to pay gazoline in FRANCE, always at a high price ( today 1,25 Euro/ liter = $6,75 / US gal....) I have decided to equip my vehicles with LPG system; LPG prices are cheaper than gazoline ( 0,45 Euro / liter = $2,22/ US Gal ) so even with my F150 , with his reasonable consumption, I think i'm right in my choice even I pull my Airstream.
Even if this way is interesting for all drivers, it seems that our government don't want to develop this energy ... not so much taxes in comparaison with the gazoline and diesel ... and LPG is green, no polution ... You see where is the benefice for the planet ?
Bruno;
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04-26-2007, 06:46 AM
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#38
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Aluminut
2004 25' Safari
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, Illinois
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,477
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You know, if the EV1 was out and the other EV cars and truck that were made didn't wind up in at the junk yard to be scrapped, pehaps we'd all be singing a different tune today. Keep in mind this was technology from 1996, 11 years ago. Not a peep was said about electrics until recently, so a long time has passed and just now, we are only seeing concept cars like the Volt.
Toyota I've heard has a Volt like Prius in the works.
I'm all for a car that can go 40 miles before needing a drop of gas. I read Brunoffrance's post about how the government this and that, and I finally realized that we really all are screwin' the pooch here. I knew Europe was paying much higher than here in the US, but it just hit me that there are few things out there to REALLY help solve this problem. It goes just so far beyond a global warming thing. With gas at $4/gallon, the poor only get more poor because the meger living they make, more of it gets spent to get to work, the middle class slips even closer the the abyss, and the rich, well, they are rich, they just become slightly less rich.
I agree with a lot that has been said here, but I am also keenly aware that there is profit and there is profit made on the backs of others and IMHO the profits of big oil are out of site. I know it's not all big oils fault. I know the futures traders, etc are a bunch of Enron type trolls. I'm also aware that in most parts of the country taxes make up a good part of the cost of gas.
So, what is the incentive for hybrid electric plug ins? The state, local and federal governments won't collect as much taxes, cause you'd use less fuel. The oil industry lobby would be out of a job, profits could shrink and the governments wouldn't get as much income tax and taxes that pay for road upkeep, but the consumer and the environment would benefit greatly, but there is NO PROFIT in helping the consumer or the environment.
Don't get me wrong, I'm no tree hugger and by definition, as an RVer, we damage the environment more than our non- RVer counterparts all in the sake of a recreation.
My point is though that enough is enough, both here and abroad. Many good people are being hurt by this reckless abandon that is being allowed to continue. It's beyond about time some real solutions and headway were made in alternate powered vehicles...if but only commuter cars at first, at least it'd be something more than what we have now.......
Seems to me the traders and big oil's profits are being made on the hardships of others. To me that simply smacks of bottom feeding.
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04-26-2007, 08:03 AM
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#39
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Tom, the Uber Disney Fan
2006 30' Safari
Orlando
, Florida
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,693
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverback
My Loves truck stop off I-10 (Gila Reservation) was $2.85 now it is $2.83.
-Ken
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It's all cyclical. Gasoline dropped from $2.79 Monday morning to a low of $2.67 Wednesday morning at the Race Track on my way to work...it jumped to $2.78 by Wednesday afternoon at the same station!
How do you explain a $.12 drop over a three day period and then an $.11 jump in one day during the same week? There seems to be no logic to the cycle.
__________________
2006 30' Safari - "Changes in Latitudes"
2008 F-250 Lariat Power Stroke Diesel Crew Cab SWB
Family of Disney Fanatics
WBCCI# 4821
https://streaminacrossamerica.com/
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04-26-2007, 08:10 AM
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#40
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3 Rivet Member
Commercial Member
1962 19' Globetrotter
1960 22' Safari
Stamford
, Rutland UK
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 248
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Don't know what yur all moanin about?
In the UK petrol (gas) is near £1 ($2) per ltr thats equivalent to about $8.50 per gallon
And if Gordon Brown had his way it would be double that by the time he gets to be Prime Minister.
What kills me is that the Lions share of the price is in taxes howz that for government profiteering?
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