What appliances/furnishings would you do without?

[bkahler]

Soon it will be getting to the point where I will need to figure out some sort of floor plan for my 20' Argosy. It's pretty obvious that a 20' motorhome can't pack as many features as a 26' or 31' motorhome can.

After seeing pictures of Martin's 20' rebuild it's pretty clear that the space in a 20' can be greatly enhanced from what the factory provided. What I would like to know is of the following items listed below which ones could you most do without? For myself I'm beginning to think the range top/oven combo or even just the range top could easily be eliminated and a microwave used for cooking needs.

So, any thoughts on which items below you would be willing to forgo if space was a limitation?

Range top only
Range top/oven combo
Fridge
Sink
Microwave
Bathroom/shower combo
Full length closet
Bed(s)
Generator
Table/dinette

Thanks!

Brad

[Waipio Rim]

Hey Brad,

I guess everybody will have their own take on this. For us:

The oven could go, we tried use it once and could not get it to light. Have lived nicely without it. Could not get along without the stovetop.

We use the microwave at home quite a bit. Not so much in the 310. Wouldn't miss it.

I could live without the full length closet, my wife probably would not agree.

The generator is kind of a toss up. We tend to drive almost as much as we camp when we are travelling, so the batteries stay charged and we get by without the generator most of the time. As often as not, when we are using the 310 I have to remember to run the generator once just as PM. If we had an inverter for the odd time that we need 110 v current, the generator could theoretically go, but we will keep it in case we end up in hot weather.

We need everything else on your list, including the bed.

[bkahler]

Steve, thanks for the feedback.

I guess I'm a little surprised by the microwave comment. I guess I just assumed that would be a must keep. Since I'm not much at meal preparation (if it's not microwavable I probably don't eat it!) I'm sorta inclined to eliminate the range/oven completely.

I take it you don't need the extra cooling while driving provided by the roof top A/C units. It will be interesting to see if that's the case with more people.

By the way I still have that awning rail if you need it

Brad

[martin300662]

I can back Steve up around the oven and microwave; we decided we could live without both but did include a small toaster oven (only 700watt - has its own storage cubby) along with the twin burner/sink combo. That said we also carry an outdoor combo grill (which either runs as a two burner outdoor grill or a single burner plus hotplate or a gas grill) and expect to use the outdoor grill to cook evening meals.

We do have a narrow/deep full height closet but that is more so we can store the poles and fabric for the 'rope and pole' awning and we carry matching windbreaks to give some privacy....the awning and windbreak poles around around 42" long so would not fit anywhere other than the back of the closet. This also allows us to store two large IKEA DIMPA storage bags (one hangs on the pole, one sits on the floor) in the closet; one each with all our clothes etc. Means we can unpack Bella (remove all our clothes) by removing two bags.

[bkahler]

Martin, what is a twin burner/sink combo?

My Argosy has a really small propane tank (10 gallons I think) so anything I can do to eliminate propane appliances would be nice. My water heater is a combo gas/electric so that should save on propane.

Your usage of the closet makes sense and as far as clothes storage I've traveled a good portion of my adult life so I'm sorta used to living out of a travel bag.

Do you carry an electric hot plate?

Thanks!

Brad

[martin300662]

Embedded in the countertop is a CRAMER CE00-MINI/BO-HI/27-I-G combo burner and sink (CRAMER are one of the Dometic subsidiaries in Europe, like SMEV and Waeco)



This gives a two burner cooktop (the big ring takes upto a 12" pan, the small around a 8" - and we have a stackable pan set from Tefal (called T-Fal in the US) called the Ingenio that has handles that are removable) and sink in a 24" by 18" space, which stays covered when not in use to give extra countertop.

So in the 'kitchen' we have a tri-power Dometic RM4223 fridge, with cutlery draw above; the burner/sink combo and an inset waste bin above the double cupboard, and a Atwood Excalibur 8500 furnance in the kick space; the 'draw' unit actually houses an Atwood On-Demand water heater (behind the lowest draw front), pans/plates in the middle draw, toaster oven in the top draw.

[Punch]

I would get rid of the shower.
A toilet is desirable, and sometimes an ASAP necessity, but not a shower.
A shower wastes water, or..... you have to take one of those lousy on/off/on/off showers where you freeze, and then remain kind of soapy and itchy all day.
Without a shower you seldom need a dump station.
Without a shower, you seldom need to fill the FW tank.
When I was a kid and we camped in a travel trailer, there was one sink by the range, and you washed in it, quite easily and quickly, with a tiny amount of water. We still do that when we camp in the 345.
Sure, every few days you still feel like a real shower, but all over North America you find truck stops with clean, excellent showers for a small amount of money.
I would get rid of the shower. We never use ours.

PS. I guess I should add that we never ever stay in a hook-up type campground, when a shower might be a more practical proposition. But my understanding is that it is rare to find a campground without available showers on site.

[PeterH-350LE]

Originally Posted by bkahler

.....
So, any thoughts on which items below you would be willing to forgo if space was a limitation?

Range top only
Range top/oven combo
Fridge
Sink
Microwave
Bathroom/shower combo
Full length closet
Bed(s)
Generator
Table/dinette
Thanks!
Brad

Brad, for 25+ years I was a real happy camper in a VW microbus. Went camping hundreds of times and drove across europe, north Africa and the US. So the questions, I would ask myself are:
what will the main usage be and how many people (and pets) will be traveling. Is it just for my use or do I have resell value in mind?
A very comfortable rear table/bed combo will leave you with a lot of space in the front. I personally would eliminate the separate living space in the front and only use the 2 driving chairs to turn 90 degrees and have a little removable table in between. This will allow you to keep the bathroom were it is and have a generous kitchen with all the good appliances to boot.
Look at this german camper, its about the same size as your 20'
1984 Wohnwagen Eriba-Nova 21 foot

Here is a picture of the rear bedroom, I envision

[RosiesGuy]

Just started on my renovation - Yesterday the first thing I took out was the Stove/Oven. Microwave was already missing. Wife wants a induction plate and a convection microwave . New sink forthcoming, just not sure single or double.

[Punch]

Martin... I have seen a few pictures of your great conversion now. I wish you would start a picture-rich thread with the Full Monty ...... I love the design, colors, floorplan and now this cooktop/sink. Great work!

[martin300662]

Originally Posted by Punch

Martin... I have seen a few pictures of your great conversion now. I wish you would start a picture-rich thread with the Full Monty ...... I love the design, colors, floorplan and now this cooktop/sink. Great work!

I am trying to do that with the 'specific feature' posts on the re-build thread...still more of those to come!

One tip I would give anyone doing a rebuild is look further a field than US offerings on appliances; the Europeans have being building small campers/caravans for many many years. For example here is a link to the European Dometic appliance broucher - 244 pages of sinks, cooktops, fridges/freezers, A/C etc (http://www.dometic.com/QBankFiles3/E...m-EN_10254.pdf)

[Waipio Rim]

Originally Posted by bkahler

By the way I still have that awning rail if you need it

Brad

Thank you, I do. We will start east from Montana this spring, but it might take us a year or so to get to you. If you need to get rid of it in the meantime, please do.

One appliance that you didn't mention: furnace. Ours doesn't work. I plan to buy a catalytic heater that runs on little propane bottles for our run from Montana to Salt Lake in March. My Montana nephew has been using these heaters for years and likes them, supposed to be safe indoors. If it works out, both the oven and the furnace underneath it can go.

[Punch]

Originally Posted by Waipio Rim

Thank you, I do. We will start east from Montana this spring, but it might take us a year or so to get to you. If you need to get rid of it in the meantime, please do.

One appliance that you didn't mention: furnace. Ours doesn't work. I plan to buy a catalytic heater that runs on little propane bottles for our run from Montana to Salt Lake in March. My Montana nephew has been using these heaters for years and likes them, supposed to be safe indoors. If it works out, both the oven and the furnace underneath it can go.

You are no doubt well aware of this, so please excuse my mentioning it: If you buy a catalytic heater, it must be one that vents to the outside, if you don't want huge moisture problems. Each pound of propane burned produces 1.6 pounds of water.

[mayco]

We could probably lose the microwave, one of the full length closets, dont have a dinette but if we did it could go..........I think thats about it from your list. We do use the oven, wife likes to bake and has done biscuits and cookies and stuff. Boy, you really have to prioritize in that 20 footer.

Mike

[Becky B.]

In my 17' Bambi II I just have the range top (SMEK that's mounted flush to the counter top) & no oven.
That gave up a lot of space for storage.
I put a small, square micro in the closet & made the shelving to fit it, so no space was wasted there.
I love my shower (wet bath) and would never get rid of it! Have a little catalytic heater that I rarely use (I use a small electric heater when at a CG if needed) Put in the largest fridge you can! I also made as many drawers as I could instead of doors in the cabinets.

[bkahler]

Originally Posted by martin300662

Embedded in the countertop is a CRAMER CE00-MINI/BO-HI/27-I-G combo burner and sink (CRAMER are one of the Dometic subsidiaries in Europe, like SMEV and Waeco)



This gives a two burner cooktop (the big ring takes upto a 12" pan, the small around a 8" - and we have a stackable pan set from Tefal (called T-Fal in the US) called the Ingenio that has handles that are removable) and sink in a 24" by 18" space, which stays covered when not in use to give extra countertop.

I like that sink range top combo! Looking online it appears to only be sold in Europe. Price isn't bad at around $250 US but I haven't seen what shipping would be for something that size. Would you mind sharing where you purchased it from?

My only concern would be is on my Argosy the range vent is on the passenger side and the sink is on the drivers side. Did you keep your range vent or eliminate it?

So in the 'kitchen' we have a tri-power Dometic RM4223 fridge, with cutlery draw above; the burner/sink combo and an inset waste bin above the double cupboard, and a Atwood Excalibur 8500 furnance in the kick space; the 'draw' unit actually houses an Atwood On-Demand water heater (behind the lowest draw front), pans/plates in the middle draw, toaster oven in the top draw.

I've already purchased a Suburban 20k btu furnace that I'll be using. I'm not sure I'm up for the major modifications that you made to your coach both internally and externally. I'm not quite as skilled as the techs you had working on yours!

[3wd67rg]

Are you living in your Argosy? We are living in our 1988 325 Classic Motorhome approximately six months out of the year, so doing without any of those is a bummer. However we have been doing without a stove. Have to admit that I miss it, but I'm not dying either We would not want to use a stove during the hottest months when we are traveling, and by winter we shall be back home in San Diego where I have a full kitchen.

No woman wants to give up closet space if they are living in it. I have a few dresses in the closet because you never know if you might need to dress up, or just want to dress up for a night on the town or dinner out. Last year I brought only 1 week of summer clothes and 1 week of autumn clothing. I went crazy wearing the same outfits for four months. Although my full wardrobe is built to mix/match, you can only do so much with 2 weeks worth of clothing. So this year I packed into the closet all my favorite outfits. I'm a happy woman this year.

We have always done without a dinette and are very comfortable with that. We do have a small table that hides in a little cabinet, but we removed the two big swivel chairs on either side of it and it's such a nice feeling, so open! I am looking for two nice wood folding chairs, preferably ones that can recline. This way they will also be comfortable for watching Netflix movies on the screen, and we can pack them up for more space.

[bkahler]

Originally Posted by Punch

I would get rid of the shower.
A toilet is desirable, and sometimes an ASAP necessity, but not a shower.
A shower wastes water, or..... you have to take one of those lousy on/off/on/off showers where you freeze, and then remain kind of soapy and itchy all day.
Without a shower you seldom need a dump station.
Without a shower, you seldom need to fill the FW tank.
When I was a kid and we camped in a travel trailer, there was one sink by the range, and you washed in it, quite easily and quickly, with a tiny amount of water. We still do that when we camp in the 345.
Sure, every few days you still feel like a real shower, but all over North America you find truck stops with clean, excellent showers for a small amount of money.
I would get rid of the shower. We never use ours.

PS. I guess I should add that we never ever stay in a hook-up type campground, when a shower might be a more practical proposition. But my understanding is that it is rare to find a campground without available showers on site.

Bob, I'm not sure I could do away with the bath/shower combo. I follow your reasoning but if I'm going to have a toilet in the coach it doesn't hurt anything to have the shower components left in place. If it doesn't get used then no water wasted.

I never did use the shower in the 310 (separate shower & separate toilet) as we always stayed someplace where there was a shower available.

Thanks for the feedback!

Brad

[bkahler]

Originally Posted by StarLord

Just started on my renovation - Yesterday the first thing I took out was the Stove/Oven. Microwave was already missing. Wife wants a induction plate and a convection microwave . New sink forthcoming, just not sure single or double.

If I can't get a hold of a sink/stove combo like Martin used I might just go with a small microwave and an induction plate. I can't see a need for an oven especially if I carry a small toaster oven like Martin does.

Thanks for the feedback!

Brad

[bkahler]

Originally Posted by Waipio Rim

Thank you, I do. We will start east from Montana this spring, but it might take us a year or so to get to you. If you need to get rid of it in the meantime, please do.

One appliance that you didn't mention: furnace. Ours doesn't work. I plan to buy a catalytic heater that runs on little propane bottles for our run from Montana to Salt Lake in March. My Montana nephew has been using these heaters for years and likes them, supposed to be safe indoors. If it works out, both the oven and the furnace underneath it can go.

Steve,

The awning rail isn't going anywhere, at least not unless I move which something catastrophic would have to happen for that to be the case