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Old 12-24-2017, 06:06 PM   #41
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Just realized this afternoon that I used the wrong term in some of my earlier post. NMF is claimed to be an Ionic and I mistyped it as Iconic. Helps to use the correct spelling if you want to do more searches. Ionic Liquids are used extensively in the oil drilling industry.
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Old 12-25-2017, 08:04 AM   #42
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Cool. Did you find any reports about it's use? My guess is that they wouldn't use it if it didn't work. I feel the same way and I'm using it because it does in fact work. The Improvements I've experienced with it are quite remarkable. Consequently, I wanted to share the product and my experiences with it here for others to benefit from. If any of you decide to give it a try, please report your experiences here!
Merry Christmas!!
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Old 12-25-2017, 11:23 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Woodrow View Post
Cool. Did you find any reports about it's use? My guess is that they wouldn't use it if it didn't work. I feel the same way and I'm using it because it does in fact work. The Improvements I've experienced with it are quite remarkable. Consequently, I wanted to share the product and my experiences with it here for others to benefit from. If any of you decide to give it a try, please report your experiences here!
Merry Christmas!!
Merry Christmas back at Ya.

I did find a lot of reports, but for some I could only read the abstracts as most papers from USA professional organizations and journals have to be purchased to reads the entire text. Here are some examples

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/acsami.6b12489

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/1...nalCode=utrb20

However there is a full body of scientific work by government labs and universities that are available. Most are beyond my comprehension as an engineer. Here are a few examples:

https://www.eng.yale.edu/aflab/2015%...diFuel2015.pdf

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...59652617306625

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...43164815000721

I'll keep looking and reading as I find this an interesting topic. The one name that comes up a lot in this research field is Dr. Jun Qu from the DOE Oak Ridge National Laboratory. I sent him and email last week and got a reply. He had never heard of NMF, but agreed that it does sound related to his research. Perhaps he will look at the NMF product to see if it has a real scientific basis. Here is the latest presentation from Dr. Qu's research.

https://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/...2016_o_web.pdf
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Old 12-25-2017, 01:24 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Woodrow View Post
My guess is that they wouldn't use it if it didn't work. I feel the same way and I'm using it because it does in fact work. The Improvements I've experienced with it are quite remarkable.
How do you define "work" and what measurement method(s) do you use besides anecdotal? All your posts tout goodness but lack any more clarity than NMF's marketing pitch provide.

Did your vehicle suddenly run at a higher idle rate due to reduced internal friction, or does your engine's cpu unit reduce the fuel flow to maintain a consistent idle rpm? Have you used a measured amount of fuel and run your engine at idle until consumed to measure fuel efficiency gains? Or, have you repeated laps on a predefined route to measure the fuel savings and thus provide specific mileage improvements?

Have you done an oil particulate analysis after comparable measured periods to determine wear? Have you disassembled said machinery and conducted visual and microscopic surface inspection, or systematically eliminated other factors that could have produced the change in symptoms/observations reported?

Any of those activities would assist any reader better understand why your continued proselytizing should be given credence over considering it confabulation. "Feeling" like it has value, performs as advertised, and worth the investment without in-depth personal or independent party studies, with benchmark and comparative analysis data to back it up, is only debatable endorsement (a belief) not substantive proof of performance as the thread replies have consistently pointed out with probity.

I find it quite unbelievable that a 15+ year old product, that actually performs as claimed, has not been better recognized or adopted within the industry. It should be employed by manufacturers to attain higher mpg rates to achieve government standards more cheaply. Manufacturer adoption would also be justified to merely lengthen warranty periods or reduce warranty expenditures within current time length offerings as a major cost savings. Capitalism pursues profitability aggressively yet this miracle of chemistry remains unexplored or vigorously tested!

Caution is advised as the oft repeated quote highlights (see title).
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Old 12-25-2017, 07:56 PM   #45
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SeeMore - Ionic Liquid (IL) additives have been tested as you suggested above by researchers at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory (ORNL) with cooperation by both Shell Oil and General Motors. They show improvements in efficiency that equates to mileage gains and reduced wear. Problem is trying to determine if NMF is related to any of the chemical compounds used by ORNL in their and other research.
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Old 12-25-2017, 11:04 PM   #46
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It isn’t as simple as stating that some ionic liquids have been tested and found to reduce friction when used as oil additives. Those tests were under very specific conditions.

I thought one of the more interesting studies was the one posted above by Boxster1971, linked here:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...43164815000721

The conclusions in the study noted, among other findings that:

Quote:
The addition of Phosphonium ILs as additive in the used engine oil (after depletion of the already existing additive package) improved its friction and wear behaviour.

The addition of Phosphonium ILs to relatively less degraded engine oils e.g. half intended service life (than fully Used Oil) worsens the wear and produces no significant change in friction performance.

Interference between ILs and existing additives in engine oils was noted.
This highlights the potential risk of putting any mystery wonder chemical in with a modern engineered lubricant. You may degrade it. And the interferences between the two are not yet well understood.

There is also a good discussion of wear and friction in the same paper, explaining how the two are not directly related. This isn’t acknowledged by the NMF literature, which suggests that wear and friction are directly related.

Quote:
....wear results showed no symmetry with their friction counterpart (Fig. 2). This observation could be justified by the fact that friction and wear are not directly related, as explained by Blau in [27]. The processes that lead to friction and wear may arise from different material and systems properties and often do not reach steady-state at the same time. Therefore, the same friction behaviour of oil with and without ILs does not necessarily mean a similar effect is observed on wear as well.
To be confident of the benefits of adding NMF to my crankcase, I wouldn’t just want to know whether an ionic liquid could reduce friction under some conditions. I would want to know about all conditions. With my engine. With my specific OE-specified lubricant. And what the effects on lubricant life were, apart from friction impacts. This is before we even get to whether NMF ocontains anything resembling the ionic liquids being tested by various labs.
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Old 12-26-2017, 12:09 PM   #47
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There is nothing simple about developing the ideal oil additive, which is why I'm skeptical of NMF.

The internet is also full of articles that question the oils recommended by vehicle manufacturers. Here is one that keeps making the rounds on the Sprinter-Source forum.
http://www.stephensservice.com/bluet...ssuesproblems/

Mr. Stephens comments are just as skeptical as those about NMF.
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Old 12-27-2017, 10:20 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeeMore View Post
How do you define "work" and what measurement method(s) do you use besides anecdotal? All your posts tout goodness but lack any more clarity than NMF's marketing pitch provide.

Did your vehicle suddenly run at a higher idle rate due to reduced internal friction, or does your engine's cpu unit reduce the fuel flow to maintain a consistent idle rpm? Have you used a measured amount of fuel and run your engine at idle until consumed to measure fuel efficiency gains? Or, have you repeated laps on a predefined route to measure the fuel savings and thus provide specific mileage improvements?

Have you done an oil particulate analysis after comparable measured periods to determine wear? Have you disassembled said machinery and conducted visual and microscopic surface inspection, or systematically eliminated other factors that could have produced the change in symptoms/observations reported?

Any of those activities would assist any reader better understand why your continued proselytizing should be given credence over considering it confabulation. "Feeling" like it has value, performs as advertised, and worth the investment without in-depth personal or independent party studies, with benchmark and comparative analysis data to back it up, is only debatable endorsement (a belief) not substantive proof of performance as the thread replies have consistently pointed out with probity.

I find it quite unbelievable that a 15+ year old product, that actually performs as claimed, has not been better recognized or adopted within the industry. It should be employed by manufacturers to attain higher mpg rates to achieve government standards more cheaply. Manufacturer adoption would also be justified to merely lengthen warranty periods or reduce warranty expenditures within current time length offerings as a major cost savings. Capitalism pursues profitability aggressively yet this miracle of chemistry remains unexplored or vigorously tested!

Caution is advised as the oft repeated quote highlights (see title).
SeeMore,
I disassembled my engine and transmission and took precise measurements of each component before and after testing NMF. Right.
My particle analyzer is out of calibration so I admit, I did not perform those tests. Sorry. I did drive my 2007 Mercedes E350 4matic treated with NMF on a 1000 mile trip recently and running 80 to 95 MPH got about .5 mpg better that the book. (sorry I don't have it nailed to the last decimal point) It was incredible smooth and the transmission performed flawlessly.
You choose to call my experienced observations anecdotal. I prefer to use the term empirical. Just like when I have the propellers dynamically balanced on my airplanes, I can definitely tell the difference in smoothness but don't have hard data to quantify the results. It just works and makes a very noticeable improvement.
You are worried about 1oz of NMF added to each 32oz of oil. I think you'll agree that it's not a high concentration. It works well mixed with Mobile 1 I can tell you. I would suggest that you spend a little more time watching the videos on http://gonmf.com and witness for yourself the improvements in performance, smoothness and increased fuel mileage.
Several of the racers provide exact temperature measurements in controlled conditions which I'm sure you'll enjoy. Those people in the videos are not lying or paid actors. They are truck drivers and racers who do provide the kind of evidence that you want to see.
It's quite apparent that you are a highly intelligent and discerning individual. Lighten up. Have faith and a great 2018.
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Old 12-27-2017, 10:52 AM   #49
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I have no dog in this fight but I really don't get your sarcasm. You're pushing a product you yourself understand can be perceived as snake oil. There's a lot of leeway for your opinion, and there's also been a lot of thoughtful pointers to scientific research in ionic liquids (whether or not NMF is the same liquid tested) which one expects scientists (with the kind of equipment and resources average Joe's like you and I lack) would conduct.

You say it works for you. There's no definition of what that means other than your feeling it's doing a good job. I'm happy for you on that front. Do what you like. But please don't pretend that science doesn't matter. I don't know why truth, facts, and science are becoming bad things these days, but they all matter and shouldn't be mocked because one "feels" like they don't.

FWIW....
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Old 12-27-2017, 02:23 PM   #50
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I'm sarcastic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveSueMac View Post
I have no dog in this fight but I really don't get your sarcasm. You're pushing a product you yourself understand can be perceived as snake oil. There's a lot of leeway for your opinion, and there's also been a lot of thoughtful pointers to scientific research in ionic liquids (whether or not NMF is the same liquid tested) which one expects scientists (with the kind of equipment and resources average Joe's like you and I lack) would conduct.

You say it works for you. There's no definition of what that means other than your feeling it's doing a good job. I'm happy for you on that front. Do what you like. But please don't pretend that science doesn't matter. I don't know why truth, facts, and science are becoming bad things these days, but they all matter and shouldn't be mocked because one "feels" like they don't. FWIW....


I'm not sure how I gave you the impression that science does not matter.
Certainly it does. I have no dog in this hunt either. I've simply tried to share my positive experiences with this product for the benefit of this group. To say that my thoughts, comments and observations along with all of the quite convincing information on MNF's site have been poorly received would be an understatement, with a few exceptions. Thank you to those who have not summarily dismissed my observations as nonsense. I will continue to use and enjoy the benefits of this excellent product, maybe some of you will too. Best wishes to you all for the New Year!
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Old 12-28-2017, 10:15 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Woodrow View Post
...when I have the propellers dynamically balanced on my airplanes, I can definitely tell the difference in smoothness but don't have hard data to quantify the results. .....I will continue to use and enjoy the benefits of this excellent product, maybe some of you will too. ...
John Woodrow,
Firstly, if you have had your aircraft propellers dynamically balanced ...then you also SHOULD HAVE quantifiable results as you SHOULD have a printout of the IPS differences between the pre-balance and the post-balance efforts....
Making that statement as you did tends to indicate a less-than-accurate understanding of the process.

Also, ...your continued praise and promotion of this product raises a question in my mind: What is the actual and true relationship you have with the NMF product?
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Old 12-28-2017, 10:38 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Woodrow View Post
I'm not sure how I gave you the impression that science does not matter.
Perhaps by suggesting an equivalence between anecdotal evidence and empirical evidence.

Perhaps by claiming that the “testimonials” and info on NMF’s site are convincing.

Perhaps by ignoring the scientific method, whereby one would put forth a theory about why something would work, and then design an experiment to prove or disprove that theory, as opposed to simply trying something, and suggesting that constituted an experiment, despite the lack of controls.
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Old 12-29-2017, 08:07 AM   #53
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I have no association with NMF and get zero benefit or consideration from them for talking about their product. Again, I'm simply sharing my experiences.
I have several friends who have used NMF in their vehicles and every one off them have been very happy with the results, as I have been. There have been multiple cases, including my own, of transmissions with shifting or other anomalies that have been cured by this stuff.
Engines run smoother, temperatures go down and fuel mileage increases.
I found several of the videos on their site to be quite convincing, have tried the product and verified to my satisfaction that what they present is true.
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink". I've done all I can do here and learned a lot from you in the process..
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Old 12-29-2017, 08:20 AM   #54
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I get the same accusations when I talk about Coosa board.

Just like the Q-Ray bracelet, mediums and all sorts of oil and gasoline additives; their benefits can be all in the eye of their beholders.

I for one think that modern day oils are pretty good at lubrication, but do admit that due to Ethanol and low sulphur diesel, modern fuels do need owner added additives to function in our old Classic power trains.

Cheers
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Old 12-29-2017, 08:52 AM   #55
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I can't imagine putting this magic potion in my new vehicle without the vehicle manufacturer endorsing it. It sounds like a great way to void a warranty.

If the OP has had a good experience and likes it, great. But I would want some pretty substantial data to back up the claims, not testimonials, and preferably vehicle manufactures endorsements.
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Old 12-31-2017, 01:07 PM   #56
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I know all of you eagerly await more unscientific testimonials about NMF !
Treated all the systems in 345 yesterday. Since the roads are nasty, I didn't take it out but I did run the Onan generator. WOW!!!! Even with great prior maintenance including carbon removal, Mobile 1 , new fuel pump and complete tune up, it ran as well as Onan generators generally do. After treating it with 4oz of the magic sauce and running it for a minute, it smoothed out incredibly. I'm just say'n...
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Old 01-01-2018, 08:48 AM   #57
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John Woodrow thought I would get a kick out of this thread on the Airstream forum. That is an understatement!
Wow.
I recently purchased a 2002 Nissan Xterra with 170,000 Miles on it with a 5-speed manual transmission. I think I ran into No More Friction by searching for an engine cleaner, if there is such a thing, prior to draining and changing the oil. I, like my friend John Woodrow, like to start a folder on any vehicle we purchase. To amplify John's knowledge and ownership of multiple fossil fueled vehicles for 50 plus years, I doubt, he could list every vehicle he's ever owned on the front of a standard legal pad. Cars,boats,trucks, motorcycles, tractors and "Many" airplanes. Let alone dollars spent.... He has seat time, in multiple, multiple vehicles.
Ah,key word....."seat time". As a professional heavy equipment operator I make my living by seat time. Seat time is something that you acquire throughout your lifetime, unlike common sense, some people have it, some people just don't. John's seat time and vehicle ownership is quite impressive.
I too have owned lots and lots of vehicles in my lifetime. At one recent point I couldn't tell you how many motorcycles I owned for sure. So, back to the Xterra. In searching the web I found NMF. First as an engine cleaning product. Up until now I've always been happy with Marvel's Mystery Oil, and continue to use it weekly as a gas additive. My 2002 Nissan Xterra 3.3V6 holds a whopping 3.5 quarts of oil. In my opinion, that doesn't seem like a whole lot of oil to engine ratio versus gross weight of vehicle movement. I'm also thinking about drag and friction loss via the four-wheel drive drivetrain. I search the web as I said before, found NMF and purchase the small bottle off of Amazon. I added the recommended 3.5 oz of product to my soon-to-be changed engine oil. I did the 500 mile cleaning duration as suggested and then dropped oil. And for someone who makes a living by operating diesel equipment, I must say the oil was pretty blackened. I dropped all of my Driveline and manual transmission fluids, reinstall them to manufacturers levels using high quality synthetic lubricants and finally installed No More Friction friction to every gear box. Did I fire up the truck back out of the garage and say wow? Not really. However, I will state as John as stated, every part of my Driveline including engine vibration seemed to be substantially noticeably better. Now I hurry up and wait for long jevity. I then one by one added No More Friction to the rest of my vehicles, which were all due and or shortly past due of an oil change. I did all drivelines,including radiator and power steering pump. I will State for the record, all of my vehicles are running an operating smoother than ever before.
I am the guy that turned John onto No More Friction. With my thousands and thousands of seat time experience, typically running a machine at Full Throttle all day long. My conclusion is the same as John's, the stuff just works!
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Old 01-01-2018, 08:55 AM   #58
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Happy New Year!!
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