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Old 05-01-2013, 06:51 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by perryg114 View Post
This picture is exactly why I don't like putty tape. As you can see it is not getting the job done. It did not help that none of it was under the flange.

Perry
And it didn't help that the Factory saw fit to use only 6 of the 12 available mounting points. Granted the indentations were there but not drilled. Look close and you can see them in the first photo!!




Bob
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Old 05-01-2013, 07:51 AM   #62
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Freakin worker left empty coffee cups in every nook and cranny of mine!...oh, that was me.
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Old 05-01-2013, 07:53 AM   #63
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Ugh - jumping in again. Want to mention the cost. When I factor that in I want a better product. I am talking about the 85g's that will buy you a classic or 60g's that buys you a 25' International. Finding scrap of wire ends, insulation, snicker bar wrappers etc. shows a lack of detail and ownership. My trip to the factory was an eye opener. There were part bins all over the place and hand written notes on many of the bins.

By contrast I worked for awhile at Honda Factory. It was clean and organized. AirStream could use an injection of Honda know how.
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Old 05-01-2013, 08:53 AM   #64
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I worked for a BIG corporation over 37 years. The 'senior' management and non-managerial folks had respect for customer which I absorbed and made my own 'ethic'. Management, drove much of that 'ethic quality' out of the business behind closed doors while pushing this 'work ethic' in public.... it was a motivator killer when you are resolving a customer problem and your manager is berating you for some 'generic' number... never considering the customers.

To me, that was deceit and I struggled to walk the line of caring for our customers, our bread-n-butter and at the core, I deeply appreciated my customers.

When the 'worker' comes to believe, at his/her core, that they they are REPLACEABLE, and merely a TOOL being used, they TEND to behave accordingly without a motivational ethic to temper action.

One lesson I learned was from a automobile 'body' man in the early 1960s. Name of product is unimportant. A customer had complaint of 'banging/thumping' noise when driving. Eventually my friend, taking personal ownership of the problem, tore the car apart after identifying the problem occurred when turning on a certain road at certain speed... a 'repeatable process', not just blowing off the complaint so that he could 'make his book hours'... He found a glass Coca-Cola bottle, tied up using some string and swinging like a pendulum inside the trunk between the side of car and fender well. Inside the bottle was a note.. I saw it....as I recall, it said "took you a while to find this one, didn't it?"

Us guys always played 'tricks' as part of some 'fun on the job'... but, not at customers' expense like that. We glued tools down, left dirty rags in a buddy's tool box, etc..

On one occasion management 'secured' these rags and would only hand out a few at a time... trying to 'control cost'... so, customers' machines were not properly cleaned, except for a few of us who bought our own... including soap! I went for my usual disbursement and was told, "there are no clean rags." The parts room guys were dilligent in keeping us out of the room but would not check for some 'partially used' rags. I got the office manager to go fish out some 'usable' rags... after that, the 'rule' was changed and I could get all I needed to care for their/our customers.

We were told "we pay you an above average wage"... I replied, "Oh, ok, so, you only want 'above average' work? Cool." Now, whether someone has the courage to say that, or just changes behavior, it has an effect.

I have a lot more examples.. bottom line, if the 'workers' do not 'feel the love', you will get ONLY your dollar amount.
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Old 05-01-2013, 09:57 AM   #65
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It seems that QC has improved in recent years, but some owners say absolutely "no". It seems as if there is spotty QC and some trailers get the worst workers. There have been a few threads about poor QC and cheap parts in the past 2 years. That is less than in the 4 years before that, but either QC has improved a bit or people posted they would never buy an Airstream after they found out about QC and cheap parts, so the company did lose a lot of money because of that (if 15 posted, that's around $1M in retail sales, but maybe more never posted but were influenced not to buy). It is possible that training for new hires is not well done. When Airstream does change, it is very slowly—things like better sealing have been called for for many years here, but only in the past year or two have they been installed seals under penetrations, and using the cheapest seals they can find.

When I met Bob Wheeler about 3 or 4 years ago I asked him if they had QC engineers and he told me yes. My reply was to get better ones because they weren't doing a good job. I said the service center knows what things are done badly, so is there a factory and service center committee to review the problems and correct them? Wheeler said yes, so I replied that the factory reps aren't listening. It is very hard to change a culture of sloppiness and ultimately, management is responsible. When management does aggressive cost cutting and pays as little as they can get away with, the workers get the message that if management doesn't care what goes out the door, why should we workers care either?

Our 2008 (bought in the fall of 2007) was poorly factory prepped and the dealer didn't do anything either to deliver a good trailer. Eventually we took it to the service center twice for days of warranty work. It was not a good experience.

There isn't much on the internet as to reviews of RV quality. There is one website I've found and Airstreams come out in the middle—average. But a good part of the overall review was based on design. The design has been there for decades and the present ownership would never have had the imagination to come up with it if they hadn't bought it a generation ago. Subtract design, and Airstream would be below average. All of Thor's products are average or worse in those reviews.

I'm glad some owners are getting much better built trailers. Airstream employees do read these threads and some of them are trying to improve the product. The corporate culture is as hard to change as the culture on the floor, maybe harder given the personalities of those who tend to become corporate leaders.

Automation is expensive in the short run, though in the long run it usually pays. It doesn't guarantee quality if management isn't committed to quality. Hand built units are as good as management wants them to be. Quality has nothing to do with either automation or hand built. But craftsmen are hard to find and demand good wages. They save you money in the long run (they work much faster and more accurately), but corporate mindset is to show big profits in the short run to keep the stock up, give management lucrative deals on private stock purchases and bonuses. If power drills weren't cheap, they'd still be using hand drills.

I wish we had known more when we decided to buy a trailer. I would have looked for recent used model well taken care of. But a lot of what I have learned took years of reading posts and owning the trailer. But aluminitis makes you drunk on buying an Airstream. Patience while captured by the design is very hard to practice. After more than 5 years, things have settled down. I have done substantial and expensive upgrades and fixes. The list is long and the trailer is much nicer than the ill-prepared one that we picked up 5 1/2 years ago. We enjoy it. It serves our travel purposes. It looks cool.

Gene
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Old 05-01-2013, 10:38 AM   #66
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Once China gets into the RV manufacturing business the industry will really shake up. Their quality has improved a lot over the last 10 years and could well build better RV's for a lot less.
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Old 05-01-2013, 11:28 AM   #67
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They already are. Where do you think the parts content comes from?
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Old 05-02-2013, 07:00 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS View Post

These are not illustrations of poor quality, just poor execution, something that can be taken care of with an attitude adjustment...

Bob
Bingo! I know that there have been some design, fit, and finish issues but that wasn't my gripe when I started the thread. Point being that these are craftsmanship, pride, sloppy habits, attitude, and work ethics of individuals. At work I say we should have hired this guy's mother to clean up after him. Sorry, but there is no excuse for leaving your trash behind.

Sawdust, for an example, creates a lot of surface area for bacteria and mold to thrive if the area gets wet. It traps and retains moisture. I see it all the time in remodel jobs when sawdust and debris left in walls and ceilings are the source of problems. It takes so little time and effort to clean up your mess.

I'm happy that a few agree with my obsolete view of work ethics and pride as a craftsman. Even if "the man" is putting it to you, how can doing sloppy or inferior work improve your future prospects? You end up trapped by a bad attitude and reputation.

I do really enjoy my Airstream, the design concept, and the way it functions. No product is perfect and Airstream is better than many.
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Old 05-02-2013, 07:30 AM   #69
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Bingo! I know that there have been some design, fit, and finish issues but that wasn't my gripe when I started the thread. Point being that these are craftsmanship, pride, sloppy habits, attitude, and work ethics of individuals.

.....

I'm happy that a few agree with my obsolete view of work ethics and pride as a craftsman. Even if "the man" is putting it to you, how can doing sloppy or inferior work improve your future prospects? You end up trapped by a bad attitude and reputation.
....
Dakota,

I mostly agree with you though in an organization it starts at the top. Leaders are supposed to lead.

I don't think of your view of ethics is obsolete. There are companies that produce good and even excellent products.

Gene
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Old 05-02-2013, 07:50 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Dakota View Post
I'm happy that a few agree with my obsolete view of work ethics and pride as a craftsman. Even if "the man" is putting it to you, how can doing sloppy or inferior work improve your future prospects? You end up trapped by a bad attitude and reputation.
I haven't lost all hope that that your "obsolete" view not will survive in today's environment.
If not, we're in more trouble than just shoddy Airstream practices.

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Dakota,

I mostly agree with you though in an organization it starts at the top. Leaders are supposed to lead.

I don't think of your view of ethics is obsolete. There are companies that produce good and even excellent products.

Gene
Couldn't agree more.

In other words "trickle down" ethics.

I like to think it worked pretty well for me growing up....

Bob
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Old 05-02-2013, 09:14 AM   #71
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I haven't lost all hope that that your "obsolete" view not will survive in today's environment.
If not, we're in more trouble than just shoddy Airstream practices.

Couldn't agree more.

In other words "trickle down" ethics.

I like to think it worked pretty well for me growing up....

Bob
We're getting close on a negotiated agreement!

I tend to lean a bit more toward personal responsibility and taking ownership for your actions. If you work for unethical bastards you need to move on instead falling to their level. It a dead end trap!
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Old 05-02-2013, 09:30 AM   #72
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You can't move on if you live where there are no other jobs, or jobs you are unqualified for, or you can't afford further education, or don't know how to do things in demand in urban areas. People in rural areas are stuck in many cases in an endless cycle of low wages, poor education opportunities and lack of resources to improve their lives. I live in such an area and the prospects for employment are poor, and the jobs here are either part time or pay very little.

Jackson Center is a small town in a rural area. It is not far from distressed urban areas such as Toledo and Dayton, but even those cities are far, far from people stuck in the counties surrounding JC.

Only a company as large as Thor has the resources to improve things and they don't use those resources for that purpose.

I'm all for personal responsibility too, but there's a limit to what an individual can do.

Gene
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Old 05-02-2013, 09:37 AM   #73
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Not an excuse to do a shoddy job!
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Old 05-02-2013, 09:48 AM   #74
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You would think someone at Airstream would read these forums daily in order to further the quality of their product.And not just read but make changes in the production cycle.Overall they build a good product but in business it is the little things that separate a good product from a great one.
I guess that I am old school but I was taught to listen to your customers and constantly make improvements or fade away.....
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Old 05-02-2013, 11:14 AM   #75
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Not an excuse to do a shoddy job!
However if you don't know any better then how do you determine what is shoddy? I have a friend that builds shelves for her house, as a former trim carpenter I hold my tounge, She is happy with them and they work so that is what counts in that case.

If someone has not been taught or shown what is quality work how will they know what it is?

As far as corporations like Thor... they are selling every Airstream they make at the prices they demand so in their eyes any money spent on "improvement" is going to take away from their bottom line.

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Old 05-02-2013, 11:21 AM   #76
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Moflash, why would they listen to the same grumbling by the same people telling them how to run their company, over and over again. There are complaints here that are 10-20 years old. That may be useful to someone, but talk about beating a dead horse.

They see these very problems in their products every day, on site, at their own Service Center. And they have responded to them, which is evident in the design and build quality of newer trailers.

They have a Customer Service phone that is available to us. Report your problem directly. We could also try calling the CEO and tell him how to run his company. I have used the Customer Service and the Service Center and they have been extremely good. Our new trailer was not absolutely perfect in its first year of use, but darn close.

doug k
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Old 05-02-2013, 11:24 AM   #77
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I was taught to listen to your customers and constantly make improvements or fade away.....
Check this thread if you think Airstream is in danger of fading away: http://www.airforums.com/forums/f483...ml#post1293470 .

Tim

PS Full disclosure: I am completely happy with the quality of our Airstream, purchased new in 2002 and still going strong.
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Old 05-02-2013, 12:08 PM   #78
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However if you don't know any better then how do you determine what is shoddy? I have a friend that builds shelves for her house, as a former trim carpenter I hold my tounge, She is happy with them and they work so that is what counts in that case.

If someone has not been taught or shown what is quality work how will they know what it is?

As far as corporations like Thor... they are selling every Airstream they make at the prices they demand so in their eyes any money spent on "improvement" is going to take away from their bottom line.

Aaron
Interesting where this thread went. If you read my original post that started all of this, I complained about individual workers and their bad habits of not cleaning up their trash. Nothing negative about Airstream or the product in general. I doubt if its company policy to leave thash hiddin behind cabinits and fixtures. Just sloppy workmanship in my oppinion. I also explained why leaving the trash behind bothered me. Again, my opinion. It's a health and fire hazard along with promoting rot.


I wouldn't be beating this horse except we are stuck in a KOA on I90 waiting out the "spring" storm. And building snowmen!


Cheers, and thanks for letting me rant about a pet peeve.


Dave....
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Old 05-02-2013, 12:58 PM   #79
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Snowman + Fluffy Dog = Win
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Old 05-02-2013, 04:35 PM   #80
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Interesting where this thread went. If you read my original post that started all of this, I complained about individual workers and their bad habits of not cleaning up their trash. Nothing negative about Airstream or the product in general. I doubt if its company policy to leave thash hiddin behind cabinits and fixtures. Just sloppy workmanship in my oppinion. I also explained why leaving the trash behind bothered me. Again, my opinion. It's a health and fire hazard along with promoting rot.


I wouldn't be beating this horse except we are stuck in a KOA on I90 waiting out the "spring" storm. And building snowmen!


Cheers, and thanks for letting me rant about a pet peeve.


Dave....
It all boils down to company "ethics" and management. I work for a decent sized national industrial roofing and siding contractor. Some crews from some offices do beautiful work and maintain clean, orderly jobsite, others not don't do nearly as well. When I was in field ops I felt like a friggin' nanny. I had to stay on the crews constantly to keep things organized and cleaned up. I had two new formen come in, I got to them early and to this day they still keep things nice and neat. Unfortunately the upper management in this company doesn't hold people's feet to the fire to make them perform ALL aspects of the job effectively. They are more concerned about production and profit numbers than anything else and it shows. I can prove to them that a clean job site is safer and more productive by the numbers, but it isn't a large enough margin to grab their attention, especially in this day and age of competitive bidding. We just recently lost a bid to a company by less than 1/2% of the value of a project. The company we lost too has one of the worst safety records in the bunch, but it was that bottom dollar on the contract they looked at. I can promise you that it will end up costing them a lot of money in additional management time to oversee that contractor versus us or even some others.

I see things that Airstream did 30 years ago, 25 years ago, 20 years ago and even still do today that aren't really acceptable, the hidden trash being one of them.

Aaron
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