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Old 01-10-2017, 06:08 AM   #1
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1974 20' Argosy 20
Richmond , Kentucky
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Argosy & Classic motorhome cockpit windows & leaks

I've been meaning to start a discussion on the differences between the early Argosy (74-76) motorhome cockpit windows and the Classic (including Argosy 77 & later) cockpit windows. So here it is

This first picture shows the cab structure and floor configuration for 74-76 Argosies. Note the cockpit floor does not extend past the inner wall. In 77 and later Airstream extended the wood floor all the way out to the outer wall.
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And this one shows what the structure is like for an 86 Classic 345. From examples that I've seen from 1977 until sometime late in the Classic construction this should be the norm. The only variation would be the lack of drain tube in the 77-78 Argosies and possibly early Classics. Note the wood floor does extend all the way to the outer wall.
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Next I've made a couple of detail sketches showing the wall structure differences. This first sketch shows how my 74 was configured.
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This one shows from 77 and later. The only variation that I know of is the lack of drain tube in the later Argosies.
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Something I should mention is the cockpit wood floor in my 74 is original, is still solid and I didn't bother replacing it when I was rebuilding that area of the cockpit since it was in such good shape. Why mine is in such good shape I can't say for certain because it still had a flaw in the design in how the water drains from the cockpit windows. If you look at the 74 sketch, in the upper cab frame channel I have an arrow indicating where water collects if the weep holes are plugged or otherwise not draining. I have no idea why the water that collects there didn't drip down the inner wall and onto the wood floor but it didn't. I have a hunch it's because the water actually drained at the back end of the channel and then ran down onto the floor by the door which is lower than the cockpit floor. It also just so happens that area was rotted out!

In a discussion with Martin as to why the water wicks through the window seals he had an interesting theory. I'll let Martin I'll let him discuss that issue as he understands it a whole lot better than I do!

The simple fix for the 74-76 Argosies is to drill a few holes where the water collects in the aluminum channel. The water will then drain down and out and since there is no wood floor there to block the flow of water there is no harm to any flooring. This is the fix I made to my 74 and after drilling the holes I no longer had water draining onto the floor by the door.


If you look at the second sketch you'll see how the floor was extended out to the outer wall. Airstream changed the structure of the cab framework somewhat but nothing that affects how water drains. The 77 and later models had the same drainage issue as the 74-76 models and it was only made worse by extending the wood floor to the outer walls. After X number of years Airstream realized they had a problem on their hands and added a drain tube in the same area I drilled holes in my Argosy. The only difference is since there was now a wood floor they had to use a tube and hose to get the water out of the window channels.

After hearing Martins thoughts on why the weep holes don't drain well I now feel the size of the tube and hose Airstream installed isn't large enough to do the job properly. I'm curious as to how many later Classic owners still have water drainage issues with the cockpit windows. The problem would manifest itself by the presence of rotted cockpit floors.

So to sum things up, for the moment at least, the 74-76 Argosies have a cockpit drainage problem that is easily corrected by drilling holes in the channel as shown in my sketch.

For 77-78 Argosies and possibly some early Classics a drain tube will need to be added which requires partial removal of the inner wall skin to gain access. A drain tube of about 5/16" or 3/8" needs to be added to get the water to drain down and away from the floor.

On Classics that have the drain tubes you need to make sure the tube isn't plugged and if possible you might want to consider enlarging the size of the tube as well.


Brad
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Old 01-10-2017, 01:36 PM   #2
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1975 20' Argosy 20
Chestfield , Kent
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Brad, checking back through my photos, I am 100% sure Bella had the gaps at the end of the floor on arrival at AS NE. I remember at the time them reporting the floor was not complete and the very first thing they did was fill the gaps....this early photo shows the new aluminum sheet metal and Vulkem on both sides.



Granted at the time they probably had no idea how problematic the cockpit windows were!

I had new gaskets and fuzzy channels installed but have realized the functions of these are not to be 'water-tight'. The fuzzy channel is just a glazing channel and allows the slider to slide, the gasket simply fills the unused channel and stops material build-up in the channel - neither stop water getting in.

Accepting water will get in to the channel, my observation is round the inadequacies of the weep holes/drains to let it out.

Bella and I think most early Argosy has a series of weep holes, which are uncovered and should allow any water the collects in the channels to exit.



However I have noticed the channel can become full of water and start to wick inside (the fuzzy channel actually helps it), rather than exiting via the weep holes - I can actually see the water though the holes, but the surface tension of water actually prevents it exiting. Touch the weep hole with a paper towel, breaks the surface tension and you see the water flow out. The weep holes simply don't weep!

The inner panels on Bella are riveted aluminum sheet and easily removed, certainly any solution the works for later model Argosy could and will be fitted to Bella!
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Old 01-10-2017, 01:37 PM   #3
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I really must fix my windows this year


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Old 01-10-2017, 02:43 PM   #4
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1974 20' Argosy 20
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Martin, the weep holes on your cockpit windows are unlike any that I've seen before! I've never see just holes they have always been slots about 1" long and about 3/16" tall. Oddly enough my Argosy had no weep holes on the drivers side and the 1" slots on the passenger side.

Does surface tension come into play with slots that are 1" x 3/16"? What about the 1/4" holes that are drilled in the bottoms of the window channels for water to drain out that way?

It sounds like the person that rebuilt your floor system had things right when they left the gap between the wood and the outer wall. It's a shame AS NE wasn't aware of what the original configuration was supposed to be. I guess you can't really blame them as they didn't have a whole lot to go on.

At least your interior wall skins are easy to remove. That will definitely simplify any future upgrades you choose to do.


Brad
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Old 01-10-2017, 03:07 PM   #5
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That does seem to suggest that your passenger side window has been changed at some point Brad.



The two windows I have stored from my parts donor both have the 4 x slot weep holes, maybe the early Argosy had none and Bella's windows were drilled in situ??????
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Old 01-10-2017, 06:06 PM   #6
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1974 20' Argosy 20
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Your donor windows look just like the ones installed on my old 84 310.

On my Argosy the drivers side window that had no weep holes (slots!) is installed with Olympic rivets. The passenger side that had weep holes is installed with buck rivets which tells me it is original to the coach. The drivers side may or may not have been changed at some point. I do know there are a lot of things on the outside of my Argosy that were installed with Olympic rivets. Since mine is a really early serial number I'm guessing that the factory was playing around with different configurations and so they used Olympic rivets.

The serial number of Dane's 74 20 is 29 higher than mine. Both his drivers and passenger windows have the weep hole slots in them. I don't have close enough pictures to tell if they are Olympic rivets or buck rivets.

So many inconsistencies between similar models!

Brad
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Old 01-11-2017, 09:42 PM   #7
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I have always wanted to have crank down windows. There must be a way I have weep holes and I also have a wet floor
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Old 01-12-2017, 05:29 AM   #8
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Looks like Dane's windows are both 'slots'.





Although the drivers side is very hard to be sure.

What makes no sense is they had a standard design by the time of Dane's MH but Bella is a little later and has different weep holes although!
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Old 01-12-2017, 06:46 AM   #9
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1974 20' Argosy 20
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Martin, I've got pictures of Dane's drivers side and they are definitely slotted weep holes. Also Dane's is a 74 with a vin number 29 higher than mine. As close as the vin numbers are there were some definitely changes in his compared to mine. I really think mine was one of the prototype models due to all the oddities it has and the fact that a lot of the features haven't been found on later rigs. Dane's on the other hand seems more like a finished product than mine. Your's being a 75 I would have expected it to be a "finished" product as well which is why I'm surprised your windows have round weep holes!
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Old 01-12-2017, 06:48 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bibbs View Post
I have always wanted to have crank down windows. There must be a way I have weep holes and I also have a wet floor
Bibbs,

Crank down windows would be a real stretch to install Fixing the leak so the floors don't get wet would be a lot easier!

See my sketches above for drilling some holes in the bottom of the window frame. Does your 76 have weep holes on the cockpit windows?

Brad
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Old 02-24-2017, 06:53 PM   #11
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Brad, Can you expanded on the idea of installing drain tubes to the lower window track? How do you install a 3/8" tube so that it does not protrude above the track?

For the record my 1979 Excella 240 has the 1" slots on the outside but no provision for a drain tube, and yes, my floors were completely rotted out when I got it in 2013.
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Old 02-25-2017, 06:13 AM   #12
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Greg,

Adding drain tubes to Peanut is next up after I finish reworking the doghouse opening. If things go well I'll have the doghouse done by tomorrow.

If I remember correctly what Airstream did on the Classics was to drill a hole in the window channel, ream or chamfer the opening and then dropped a copper tube through the hole that had the upper end flared using a flaring tool. Then they slobbered a lot of Tempro 635 around the opening from underneath which effectively sealed the opening so water ran through the hose attached to the tube. The hose then passed through the floor and down into the wheel well area.

If you look at the sketches I made in the first post for rough details. Keep your eyes on Peanuts thread where I'll be posing pictures of how I did it.

Brad
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