Radiator; no more recoreing locally!

[Magnet18]

Originally Posted by WayneG

The installation is complete and functional. No leaks so far, but it has just been idling in the yard, A real test will be tomorrow on a 25 mile run that is all uphill. Another run through the Catskills on the following weekend with Family in tow will also test its endurance.

To get the job finished for this run, I made a temp mount for the electric fan. That will need to be done properly whet I am back from this run.

I will do a proper write up when I get some time, but I think, with a few tweaks, will work fine in a Classic Airstream Motorhome.

So far the major issues are either capping the 3/4" heater nipple on the radiator, or using it and plugging the 5/8" port on the water pump.

Another issue is the top & bottom of the side tanks go all the way to the ridge where the rubber saddles go. To get my radiator framework to bolt back together, I used a ratchet strap around the frame to squeeze the saddles enough to get the frame bolts installed. It was not a lot of force, but it was not going to happen without some force.



I need to rework my drawings also.

Looks great!

[crispyboy]

Looks like your going to beat the problem.

I have a question as I see an electric fan. Does this setup have a standard fan? Is there also a clutch on the fan that could be bad?
Is the electric fan a supplement or have you thought about a better dual fan setup that would cover more of the radiator?


https://www.flex-a-lite.com/electric-fans.html


https://www.northernfactory.com/HIGH...IC_FAN_SHROUDS

[Boom Sounds]

Originally Posted by crispyboy

Looks like your going to beat the problem.

I have a question as I see an electric fan. Does this setup have a standard fan? Is there also a clutch on the fan that could be bad?
Is the electric fan a supplement or have you thought about a better dual fan setup that would cover more of the radiator?


https://www.flex-a-lite.com/electric-fans.html


https://www.northernfactory.com/HIGH...IC_FAN_SHROUDS

I believe Airstream switched from dual fans to a single fan on the classics sometime in the mid - late 80s.

[WayneG]

Originally Posted by crispyboy

Looks like your going to beat the problem.

I have a question as I see an electric fan. Does this setup have a standard fan? Is there also a clutch on the fan that could be bad?
Is the electric fan a supplement or have you thought about a better dual fan setup that would cover more of the radiator?

My rig came with a electric fan installed by someone in this vehicles past.
I have the stock fan & clutch installed and they work as they are suppose to.
I get the good old roar under heavy loads or going slow for too long.
I dont know if it will kick in less with the aluminum radiator, I will test that in a few hours.

My original electric fan was DOA so I put a new one in because it helps some when sitting in traffic.
Right now with a temp hookup the efficiency of that fan in nil because it is sitting about a inch from the radiator so it is not pushing air through as good as it should. I need to make a new mount to cure that.

One note on my setup, you dont see a air conditioner condenser, that is because I have my AC gear off for now to get the best cooling (of the engine) that I can. The electric fan was mounted to the AC condenser before it went in storage.

I also installed a thermocouple on the output side of the radiator to compare it to the thermocouple at the engine thermostat. I use a laptop with logging software to monitor the exhaust, engine oil, transmission fluid, and water temp. If the program does not crash I will have a chart to put online.

[WayneG]

Good news and, not so sure news
It made the run fine, outside temps were only in the 60's so it was not a hard test.
Engine temps stayed below 220 in the dash 195 on the thermostat housing and the water out of the radiator was maxing out at 166F

What bothers me is the transmission line temp it was going as high as 300F when under a heavy uphill load.
I dont know if that is to high or not. I dont have a good graphing program with me to make a chart.
If it is high, I wonder if the trany cooler in the radiator is not good enough?

[crispyboy]

In my opinion Transmission temp is too high at 300 degrees. These temps should not be any higher than the engine temps. Sounds like you may need an auxiliary cooler or the transmission may be slipping causing some heat.


http://www.txchange.com/heatchrt.htm

[WayneG]

It could be slippage on the hill. I need to graph the engine rpms and speed sensor data to be sure. If so, more money in the fire

[bkahler]

Originally Posted by Boom Sounds

I believe Airstream switched from dual fans to a single fan on the classics sometime in the mid - late 80s.

It was sometime after 86.

[Boom Sounds]

Extract from my chassis manual, which is a later trans, but probably reasonable guidance.

OIL TEMPERATURE MEASURED AT CONVERTER OUTLET TO COOLER

350°F is the maximum temperature. This is the normal place to install a temperature gage or signal . The temperature in this location will vary significantly with each vehicle start-up or hill. If the temperature reaches 350°F, reduce throttle. To lower the transmission temperature with the transmission in NEUTRAL, run the engine at 1,200RPM for 2-3 minutes to cool the oil. Do not allow the converter outlet temperature to exceed 350°F. Keep a close check to prevent the engine cooling system from overheating. 350°For higher would be typical of rocking the vehicle in mud, snow, or sand, or a transmission in stall (full throttle, no vehicle movement). When the trans- mission is in stall, the transmission will develop heat at a rate of one degree per second of stall.
OI L TEMPERATURES MEASURED IN THE SUMP OR OIL PAN
150°F- Minimum operating temperature for continuous operation. It is possible in low ambient temperature to
overcool the transmission with oil to air-type coolers hard to overcool if used in conjunction with oil to water coolers installed in most standard automotive radiators.

190°-200°F- Proper oil level checkingtemperature.

200°F- Maximum oil level checking temperature. Beyond this, readings are not reliable because of expansion.

285°F-Maximum sump/oil pan temperatures for short duration, such as a long hill climb

300°F- Metal parts inside the transmission begin to warp
and distort in varying degrees, seals melt rapidly, and transmission fluid life is extremely short due to oxidation and distress .

[Boom Sounds]

AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION FLUID OXIDATION

If there was no known prior abuse, the new transmission fluid is not at fault. What has probably happened is that a certain amount of highly oxidized fluid remained in the transmission converter and cooler lines. The old fluid and new fluid will not mix. They settle out a sludge or varnish, causing valves to stick and/or plug oil passages and screens. When this happens, the transmission may malfunction or fail completely.The best way to prevent the problem i s t o follow the manufacturer ' s dr ai n i nt er val s f or severe operating conditions such as trailer towing, mountain driving, and stop-and-go city driving.
Automatic transmission fluid can provide up miles of service before oxidation occurs under normal operating temperatures of about 170°F.

[WayneG]

The darn furnace gave me a cold awakening at midnight, so I left early before today's rains start.
My run home was 50 deg F and down hill all the way without the 2K lbs of 4 wheeler and trailer in tow.
My tranny temp stayed below 200 most of the way.

I plotted yesterdays & todays data and I do see a difference in the uphill and downhill run data, but I assume there is some normal slippage in a auto tranny under load and not?

The first charts show my ALDL data of the engine RPMs, Vehicle Speed (X2), and Throttle position. It looks like RPMs and Engine speed are fairly well synced even when the throttle was high. I used the same graph parameters for the downhill run and I see the speed was a bit higher that the rpms.

The second charts are of various temperatures on that same runs. Uphill and 60+ deg F outside, the transmission fluid line going to the radiator peaked at just above 300. Engine oil at 225. The engine thermostat hung right at 190 and the radiator outlet was all over the place between 100 & 170. Downhill everything was low.

This tells me the radiator does a awesome job of cooling but the transmission fluid heat exchanger inside the radiator may be inadequate!

True, I could have other problems but in previous tests, I never went above 250 on the transmission fluid reading.
One thing I did notice in comparing the speed & rpms on the

I need to check to be sure there is not restriction in the radiator heat exchanger and I think I will get a air cooled exchanger just to be safe

[Travel Pro]

Glad you are enjoying the benefits of the all aluminum radiator. They are well worth the money. Agree you do need a shroud for the fan to get max cooling. The electric fan will cool better or as well as the mechanical fan with a lower horsepower loss and engine load.

You may want to think about upping the alternator output whenever the budget allows. The old alternators did not have the output new, high performance ones do, and even at max load, they are less of a HP loss than the mechanical fans and clutches so you would still be power ahead.
When looking at supplemental tranny coolers, spend the money to get a good one. Heat kills transmissions and cooler fluid transfers more torque, so again with cooler fluid, you are transferring more torque and HP from the engine to the tranny while adding to the life and reliability of the tranny. If you look at Summit Racing you can see many choices. You need the biggest one you can attach because you cannot over-cool the tranny in an older motor home. You can get coolers with electric fans so you do not have to add the cooler to the grill to motor air path stack. You probably are running out of room there and adding more fins/restrictions to that air path restricts airflow which is no help to the motor. With a remote fan and cooler, you can mount in almost any open space under the vehicle that won't clog up or even on top of it. Remember, you have a truck with a small house on top of it. The truck part responds well to things that make trucks work better. Good luck and have fun.

[WayneG]

Alternator is already a 90 amp unit
For the tranny cooler I ordered one of these for $85:
https://www.amazon.com/70268-SuperCo...E9G/ref=sr_1_1
There is enough room for it along with the oil cooler and electric fan
I dont like the idea of rubber hoses, but the metal fitting version costs 2x as much and the ones with a fan and thermostat are 4x as much
It should be here Wednesday, leaving me 1 day to install before my next run.
I found my furnace problem, a bad contact in the thermostat on/off switch, and the delay heater wire was fried. A newer version is $15

[Boom Sounds]

Originally Posted by WayneG

Alternator is already a 90 amp unit
For the tranny cooler I ordered one of these for $85:
https://www.amazon.com/70268-SuperCo...E9G/ref=sr_1_1
There is enough room for it along with the oil cooler and electric fan
I dont like the idea of rubber hoses, but the metal fitting version costs 2x as much and the ones with a fan and thermostat are 4x as much
It should be here Wednesday, leaving me 1 day to install before my next run.
I found my furnace problem, a bad contact in the thermostat on/off switch, and the delay heater wire was fried. A newer version is $15

Wayne, which were the metal ones you ruled out?

thanks
Nick

[WayneG]

Originally Posted by Boom Sounds

Wayne, which were the metal ones you ruled out?

thanks
Nick

I was focusing on B&M gear because they have a fairly good user rating on Amazon. I dont have any personal experience with any brand.
This link is to B&M Supercoolers, the ones with hard fitting are more money or smaller that what I want:
http://www.bmracing.com/products/cat...t=SuperCoolers

[bkahler]

Wayne, I went with the B&M 70266 for my Argosy. I also installed an electric fan with the cooler because I was locating mine under the chassis instead of in front of the radiator. When I had my radiator checked out they told me the core was a recent replacement but they didn't feel I should trust the transmission cooling section so I'm not passing fluid through the radiator. The 70266 is 20.5k btu unit so hopefully that and a fan will be all I need!

[WayneG]

The coolers with fans look good, but pricey. I have enough real estate for the 8x11 cooler up front so the fan should not be needed, but I guess I could add one if needed.
For the B&M unit they recommend running the fluid through the radiator heat exchanger first then through the air cooled one. I guess this allows the fluid to be warmed up faster on cold days (not my favorite traveling weather) The air cooled exchanger removes excess heat above the engine coolant temp.
https://static.summitracing.com/glob...er_techdoc.pdf

Saturday I took a quick peek inside the old brass radiator tank and it looks like there is a 4 layer pancake heat exchanger inside.
I'm guessing that has a lot more surface area and enough flow restriction to give the tranny fluid time to transfer heat, compared to the simple cylinder used in the aluminum radiator with minimal area and fast flow reducing heat transfer.

[bkahler]

Pricey is right! I ended up just buying the cooler and then bought a fan off of ebay and made my own mounting brackets. I just hope a 20K unit is enough for a transmission that doesn't doesn't route the cooling through the radiator first. I guess I'll find out once I start driving it.

You would think there would be plenty of room under the chassis for mounting a cooler but on a 20' there's surprisingly little room!

How did you install the thermocouples you've been using for monitoring temperatures?

[Boom Sounds]

These look expensive, but are they a worthwhile investment to protect the transmission? https://www.etrailer.com/Transmissio...le/D14207.html

[bkahler]

Originally Posted by Boom Sounds

These look expensive, but are they a worthwhile investment to protect the transmission? https://www.etrailer.com/Transmissio...le/D14207.html

I have that pan installed as well. Fortunately it's a lot cheaper ($121) through Summit Racing.