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Old 04-09-2014, 11:06 AM   #43
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Jenniflow.
Please sit down before you read the next part.


It is my opinion, based upon research, that a Cummins 6BT Diesel repower of a classic would cost between $10,000 and $15,000. This would be with me doing as much as I am capable.
My guess would be to have it done would be $10,000 in labor, but could be more.
I base these numbers on engine and transmission purchase and rebuild/upgrade costs, mechanical integration, electrics integration, and chassis mods. By chassis mods, I mean modifications to front suspension springs, and brakes to handle the additional weight and power. Also needed is a rear axle ratio change.
I choose the Cummins 6bt because it was fitted to later Classic models, and has been swapped in before. It is a good motor, in 12 Valve form, and better in 24 Valve, and can produce 300bhp, and 600ftlb torque, which comfortably slams the 454, while getting between 12 and 15mpg.
I will let you crunch the numbers on how long the payback would be for that!
Me? It it is absolutely on my radar... my plan is to find the right motor/transmission, at the right price, rebuild it over time, and collect parts until my timing is right.


See the Classic Sticky for links to Diesel swaps.


On the California smog issue, see this link.
Smog Information


Anyone thinking that a Diesel swap is in their future should grab a copy of this Magazine that is on shelves NOW.



As for the genset... adding a 10 gallon gas tank somewhere, and/or doing a propane conversion would be an easy fix.


Phew... lets get back on topic!


Wayne, yes, I hear ya.. KISS principle rules.
You have enough to worry about, without adding further complications!
I also worry that the aftermarket manifold will add height and therefore clearance issues.
One comment I would add... There is a lot of good info out there about TBI mods... and one I read constantly is adding a spacer to the TB... it smoothes the airflow and adds power and MPG...
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Old 04-09-2014, 11:52 AM   #44
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I was sitting down, but apparently not down enough! That is quite a number and quite a list. I am slightly crazy but my poor husband is already holding on by the seat of his pants (now, there's an image) so I guess the diesel isn't in the cards for us. To mix a metaphor.

I would really enjoy meeting you someday, Steve, and seeing your coach. Any chance you'll go to the Balloon rally in Albuquerque in October?

I guess it's back to rebuilding the carburetor for now. Can a Dodge Ram modder easily remove it for us to get it rebuilt, or should I hold out for an AS salty dog?

Thanks again!
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Old 04-10-2014, 01:59 PM   #45
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Yes, a carb rebuild makes sense.
My MH is not going far this year... too much to do.


Back onto this whole EFI/TBI subject.
Anyone outside California, who is thinking about one of the very cool aftermarket injection setups from Holley, EZ-EFI, Edelbrock, or MSD....
Car Craft mag did a pretty comprehensive test of these 4 last month... On a Chevy big block, so real close to our hearts...


Full online copy is here..
Car Craft's Giant EFI Test - Car Craft Magazine
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Old 04-12-2014, 02:46 AM   #46
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I may be speaking out if turn here. I have been following this thread as I had this similar descision to make with my 1974 Corvette. I chose to go the route of electronic ignition and 4spd automatic trans. I obviously know nothing about your classic motorhomes , but would a change to a 4L80E be feasible spacewise? I know that the change to the 4spd auto in my corvette made a huge difference in mileage. More so than a change from carb to fuel injection would .
George
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Old 04-12-2014, 11:57 PM   #47
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Its a valid comment.
The up side is that these transmissions are strong, and based on the TH400/TH475, and as such, bolt onto the 454, but the transmission is longer and heavier(6" and about 50lb).
Downside is its not that simple...
The 4L80E and HD 4L85E are electronically shifted, and require additional integrated or stand alone shift controllers.
The physical mods include Cross member, transmission based parking brake, and driveshaft.
Careful selection of a FI control unit would allow you to control a 4L80E/4L85E transmission.
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Old 04-13-2014, 06:26 AM   #48
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A 4th gear would be nice and although the AFI TBI system could be bought with wiring for the 4L80E, as Keyair mentioned, all the other mods is more than I want to tackle at the moment.
Sidetracking a bit on transmissions, my first motor home was a old converted Bookmobile on a International chassis. It believe it had a 5 speed manual transmission with 2 speed rear end. You had to doubble clutch it and if you were lucky you could switch the rear gear without it ending up out of gear. That was a beast to drive.

Back on track with the TBI; yesterday was fairly productive, although I am still lacking the 2" throttle body from AFI, I needed to get on with the installation so I temporarily installed the small bore body so I could route the fuel lines.
All the lines are in and routed to the front of the engine as the quadrajet supply line was, and down past the mechanical fuel pump, the supply line goes to the passenger side frame in front of the engine where I put the electric fuel pump and the return line Tee's in with the return line from the mechanical pump. The output of the mechanical pump goes to the inline filter and on to the input of the electric pump.
Next I put on the new water pump and I have most of the front engine parts reinstalled. I had the radiator flushed and tested and it will be going back on today (if it stops raining)
All that is left is the distributor swap and some of the TBI wiring, and of course the 2" throttle body that they said they were going to ship 2 days ago, but I have not heard anything.

I have a lot of photos and more detailed documentation of the project on the web page I am working on. I dont want to use up my upload quota here, so I will only add a few of the photos in this thread and post a link to the web page when I am finished.
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Old 04-13-2014, 10:48 AM   #49
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Looking good Wayne!
An observation...
Having pulled my suburban TBI 454 out before, I noted that the fuel pipe feed comes up from the back of the motor into the TBI. It might be cooler than the original routing as it is not near the headers, but it also might be more work than its worth!
Would be happy to post a pic if it would help.
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Old 04-14-2014, 03:34 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keyair View Post
Looking good Wayne!
An observation...
Having pulled my suburban TBI 454 out before, I noted that the fuel pipe feed comes up from the back of the motor into the TBI. It might be cooler than the original routing as it is not near the headers, but it also might be more work than its worth!
Would be happy to post a pic if it would help.
Thanks, that was my first thought, to run the fuel lines to the bulkhead behind the engine, but since I am using the mechanical pump with the electric, the lines eventually need to go to the front of the engine anyway. I did put some sleeving on the lines to help with the heat from the engine and radiator blowing on them. Being up front, the electric fuel pump is out of the way of radiator and exhaust manifold heat. I still have the stock exhaust manifolds, and they do get red hot. While underneath, I noticed that some of the wire wrap had melted on the battery wires running down the c channel frame. The brake and fuel lines run through there also so I think I will try and fashion a heat shield out of aluminum to close off the c channel in that area.

Getting closer to being able to test it out. I have the radiator in, I had to make some new lines for the transmission, the ones on there were spliced with compression unions in several places and rubber hoses also, and someone put a filter in one of the lines.
I recall it mentioned that you should never use rubber lines on the transmission and there should be no need for a inline filter?
Also, I realized that the transmission lines go to the hot side of the radiator (Drivers side), there is a unused heat exchanger in the cool side of the radiator, I wonder why they did not use that?

I still need the throttle body, and to get the distributor swapped. A little bit of wiring left and I need to fabricate a bracket for the throttle and cruise cables.
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Old 04-18-2014, 01:05 AM   #51
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Quadrajet to Fuel injection conversion

Will the mechanical pump deliver the flow that you need to run the engine and supply the return flow that the system is going to expect?

Is the mechanical pump going to bottleneck the flow? Are the surges it will generate going to screw with the constant pressure requirements of the system?

Not meaning to be a know it all, but if I was undertaking this project it is a consideration I would take into account.

And just an FYI about fuel line routing and heat, a fuel injection setup the uses a return line is generally less prone to vapor lock than a carb setup because the constantly circulating fuel doesn't have time to sit and boil in the lines.

I think maybe the reason GM came in from the back of the motor on TBI motors was more to save several feet of fuel line per vehicle as the need to route through the front mounted fuel pump was no more.
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Old 04-18-2014, 01:35 AM   #52
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Quadrajet to Fuel injection conversion

Having done a few aftermarket F/I installations and conversions, all of the kits I have installed insist on a rear mounted pump, either in the tank or as close to the tank as possible.

This is because electric pumps are much more effective at pushing fuel than pulling fuel.

Again, not meaning to be, or thinking I am a know it all, consider that a consistent flow of fuel at a constantly reliable pressure is essential.

The tiny valves in the fuel injectors are opened and closed via very rapid electrical pulses for mere fractions of a second where the fuel pressure generated by the pump sprays fuel at a rate determined by opening time and pressure. I can not over emphasize how important a consistent fuel pressure is for this operation.

The long run from the tank in an RV only makes delivery issues magnify. If pressure is not consistent, you may have drivability and tuning issues, and even worse, if you run too lean in a hard pull, it will cause increased combustion temperature problems and possibly cracked exhaust manifolds or serious engine damage.

Going lean in a hard pull can and will burn a hole right through the middle of a piston and burn exhaust valves,,,,,,, and very quickly, before you can say boom.

If the kit instructions don't specify a rear mounted pump, and they say that using an existing mechanical pump as a "helper" is something that can or should be done, this would be new information for me regarding installation of fuel injection. I would be leery of these instructions, and frankly I would just install a pump on the frame near the tank just to rest easy and to be sure of my installation.
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Old 04-19-2014, 07:01 AM   #53
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I may be taking a small gamble on this method.
I think the mechanical pump will pull fuel fast enough to supply the electric pump. I may have to plug the return line from the mechanical pump so that all fuel goes to the electric pump and the only return will be from the throttle body.
The 2" throttle body should be here Monday and once I have it installed I will install a fuel pressure gauge on the line to the Throttle body, and put it where I can view it while driving.
If it turns out this setup wont hack it, I will bypass the mechanical pump and add a second electric pump near the tank to drive fuel up to the other electric pump. That was a suggestion by AFI for vehicles with long line runs on motorhomes.
This is the section from the AFI instruction concerning using the mechanical pump:
Quote:
Recent fuel pump installations have kept the vehicle’s mechanical fuel pump intact and used it as scavenger pump for the electric fuel pump. With this type of installation the electric fuel pump can be mounted in any location that you would choose, as a constant fuel flow is available for the electric pump. Ensure that the fuel filter is still installed between the mechanical and the electric pump if you choose this type of fuel pump installation.
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Old 04-19-2014, 08:33 AM   #54
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Well that's news to me. Til now I had never heard of keeping the mechanical pump on an injection setup.

Hopefully the same guy who boxes up the kits didn't come up with that idea....
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Old 04-20-2014, 05:55 AM   #55
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Hopefully this fuel pump setup works, otherwise I may end up pulling the tank and seeing if it is possible to retrofit an in tank pump. I need to do other work on the tank anyway.

I put the new electronic distributor in on Friday. To be sure I had the alignment correct, with a strait edge, I made marks on white tape on the edge of the dog house for the distributor rotation, rotor angle and rotor angle with the distributor raised. Rotated to the proper position, the new distributor slid right in. The only thing that could be a problem is that even with the gears aligned as before, the rotor angle is slightly off. The difference is less being a tooth off in rotation, so I believe it is because the new distributor does not have vacuum and mechanical advance, so its position will be different from the old distributor without vacuum or rotational centrifugal force. Using a cad program over the image, it is about 6.5 degrees advanced compared to the original.
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Old 04-20-2014, 07:45 AM   #56
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If the supplier says the pump will work, I bet it will, they don't want to have to deal with customer service issues,

The distributor being off that far won't matter as you can turn the body of the distributor one way or the other to get the timing perfect.
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