Pully that 454

[perryg114]

Why are you sold on an aluminum radiator?

Perry

[vswingfield]

Originally Posted by choctawmel

I was sharpening my pencil and checking my numbers. The extra 1/4" of stroke does make the difference. Thanks for keeping me on my toes. I'll need all the brain power I can muster to get all this back in one piece.

Speaking of sharpening pencils, here's the one I used. It's a quick and dirty Excel (Old format required, what's with that Mods?) spreadsheet.

Not sure what a stroker crank costs. The 4" stroke cranks were the longest what were commonly (read that "inexpensively") available. I would closely consider the cost/benefit compared to other things you could do with the money. Especially if the crank in your engine is in good shape.

[LimeyRich]

Beware!..$$..The massive popularity of aluminum radiators has more to do with late model vehicles having aluminum blocks and heads that use special antifreeze/coolant. Plus, ultra light weight stuff for the drag strip guys..$$.

We have cast iron blocks and heads. In a vehicle that sits more than it's driven you might set yourself up for an electrolytic corrosion problem in that new aluminum radiator.
My personal feeling , keep the stock brass radiator, have it recored if necessary, ALWAYS go for a four core when possible.

There have to be competent radiator shops much closer to you . And, $900 sounds like about $300 to $400 too much.

Just my two cents.
All the best. Rich.

[perryg114]

One of the problems with older engines is that the water goes through the block and then into the heads. Modern engines have aluminum heads and the water flows through the heads first and then into the block. It seems like stuff from the 60 and 70's would always overheat when you pushed it at all. You are limited by how much heat you can get to the radiator. Both aluminum and brass conduct heat well. Brass is more expensive and heavy and that is probably why they stopped using brass. New car radiators are crap. They have aluminum core radiators with plastic tanks and the tanks will crack and leak. If you spring a leak in a brass radiator you can solder it and the tanks are reusable even if the core has to be replaced. Aluminum seems to work amazingly well and it is probably because coolants have gotten a lot better about retarding corrosion.

Perry

[choctawmel]

My reasoning for aluminum over copper/brass:
1- Weight's a lot less.
2- More tube area
3- Need less rows
4- With less row, better air flow
5- Better heat exchange because of 2, 3, 4.
6- With better air flow thru radiator, A/C and transmission cooler also work better.
This $900 is not a plastic tanked radiator, it is all aluminum. I'll see how my money flow is before I'll spring for the $$$$

[noreen&sal]

Originally Posted by perryg114

One of the problems with older engines is that the water goes through the block and then into the heads. Modern engines have aluminum heads and the water flows through the heads first and then into the block. It seems like stuff from the 60 and 70's would always overheat when you pushed it at all. You are limited by how much heat you can get to the radiator. Both aluminum and brass conduct heat well. Brass is more expensive and heavy and that is probably why they stopped using brass. New car radiators are crap. They have aluminum core radiators with plastic tanks and the tanks will crack and leak. If you spring a leak in a brass radiator you can solder it and the tanks are reusable even if the core has to be replaced. Aluminum seems to work amazingly well and it is probably because coolants have gotten a lot better about retarding corrosion.

Perry

You said it all. Aluminum and plastic is cheaper than copper. Sal

[perryg114]

I would think you could make an off the shelf radiator from Summit work and just make brackets to make it fit.

Perry

[Keyair]

Mel...
Looking GREAT!
Got some input...

When you have time can you throw a tape measure on you radiator for me/us?
I can't get a good reading on mine in situ..
Looks like 36 x 20..
Would love to know the overall sizes and the core sizes.
Would also love to get same measurement on your AC condensor.

I am pretty sure i will go Aluminum...
Doing away with the in radiator trans and engine oil coolers..
Looking for all welded construction with aluminum end tanks so if I want I can get that forward facing filler neck welded in.
This one is a 34 x 19 and looks like it fits the bill, but probably made "elsewhere" and is way cheap...
But it does state that it out-cools a 4 row, and can handle 500/600 hp..
19 x 34 in Aluminum Radiator Chevy GM Inlet Outlet Crossflow Truck or Car | eBay

My 87 454 Suburban has/had an aluminum/brass radiator, and no issue beside when the waterpump bearing let go, allowing the fan assembly to wobble, bent the VC and the fan did this was the carnage..




The replacement was a 4 row aluminum/plastic Spectra premium HD unit that cost $160 form RockAuto..
This radiator cools the same motor and in the 3/4t chassis is rated to tow 10k lbs in addition to its 6k curb weight...
Dimesions say 28 x 19.

Note, the mid 80's 454 powered suburban's with tow package and rear AC have a 7 blade fan... I read that it moves more air than the normal 5 blade.

I am planning on using Royal Purple ICE wetter/corrosion inhibitor in the system too.
Automotive - Royal Purple

[Keyair]

On the subject of the intake...

I have a 2160 Edelbrock Performer with the EGR.. even tho my 84 did not have EGR, even the stock cast iron intake has provision for it... just a blanking plate on the hole, which is what I planned to do.



I am concerned about it being too tall as well..
The carb mounting looks a lot thicker/taller that the stock one..




Here is a good view of the overall heights so you might be able to compare..
Underside of Valley mounting flange to top of Banks filter is about 14 1/2"

[choctawmel]

I do have those measurements around here somewhere....
Overall-33wX21hX 3 1/4t
core-28 1/2wX20 1/2hX2 1/4t
tanks- 3 1/2wX3 1/4tX21h
all inlets- 1 1/4"
heater inlet- 3/4"
The problem with the ready made radiators: the fill is on top <modification>, no heater hose inlet<modification>, inlets wrong size<modification>, no sender (what's it for?) boss<modification>. By the time it was modified to work for my application, be cheaper to pay the $900. Of course here it is getting into the Holiday season. This is about the same time of year I started trying to get a custom shift lever for my 4L80E project last year, think it took my till the end of January to get it built.
I only use one oil cooling plate in the tank for the engine oil after it goes to the cooler mounted under the bumper. Would want to keep that setup for cold weather (if I ever go caught in it) driving. My transmission oil goes thru a cooler in the curbside wheel well (behind the headlight) them to the large cooler on the front of the A/C condenser.

Your radiator looks just like one I've got in my scrap pile from a ford N8 tractor.

This is what your fan should look like. Thinking I'll change the fan clutch while I'm at it.
mel

Originally Posted by Keyair

Mel...
Looking GREAT!
Got some input...

When you have time can you throw a tape measure on you radiator for me/us?
I can't get a good reading on mine in situ..
Looks like 36 x 20..
Would love to know the overall sizes and the core sizes.
Would also love to get same measurement on your AC condensor.

I am pretty sure i will go Aluminum...
Doing away with the in radiator trans and engine oil coolers..
Looking for all welded construction with aluminum end tanks so if I want I can get that forward facing filler neck welded in.
This one is a 34 x 19 and looks like it fits the bill, but probably made "elsewhere" and is way cheap...
But it does state that it out-cools a 4 row, and can handle 500/600 hp..
19 x 34 in Aluminum Radiator Chevy GM Inlet Outlet Crossflow Truck or Car | eBay

My 87 454 Suburban has/had an aluminum/brass radiator, and no issue beside when the waterpump bearing let go, allowing the fan assembly to wobble, bent the VC and the fan did this was the carnage..




The replacement was a 4 row aluminum/plastic Spectra premium HD unit that cost $160 form RockAuto..
This radiator cools the same motor and in the 3/4t chassis is rated to tow 10k lbs in addition to its 6k curb weight...
Dimesions say 28 x 19.

Note, the mid 80's 454 powered suburban's with tow package and rear AC have a 7 blade fan... I read that it moves more air than the normal 5 blade.

I am planning on using Royal Purple ICE wetter/corrosion inhibitor in the system too.
Automotive - Royal Purple

[choctawmel]

I measured the stock intake- 2 7/8" tall. The Edelbrock 2161 is 3.8" tall. Basically 1" taller. I have the Banks inlet on top a throttle body. The spacers (don't work very well) are so the lower filter housing (stock for carburetor) will clear the throttle linkage and the valve cover. With the 1" extra height of the intake, may be about to cut the spacers out between the TB and the housing.

A guy down the street from me has EFI 454's setting on the floor(it's a junk yard). I think the EFI stock lower filter housing is built different (low profile). Got to make a trip with my housing to compere with one he may have. Otherwise, buy or built a plenum and relocate the filter up front..
mel

Originally Posted by Keyair

On the subject of the intake...

I have a 2160 Edelbrock Performer with the EGR.. even tho my 84 did not have EGR, even the stock cast iron intake has provision for it... just a blanking plate on the hole, which is what I planned to do.



I am concerned about it being too tall as well..
The carb mounting looks a lot thicker/taller that the stock one..




Here is a good view of the overall heights so you might be able to compare..
Underside of Valley mounting flange to top of Banks filter is about 14 1/2"

[LimeyRich]

May I suggest checking out Summit racing's "air filter bases" ?
They have numerous sizes and in + or - base heights.
Might work for you as an adapter to the Banks filter.
Good luck with it.
All the best. Rich.

[choctawmel]

Originally Posted by LimeyRich

May I suggest checking out Summit racing's "air filter bases" ?
They have numerous sizes and in + or - base heights.
Might work for you as an adapter to the Banks filter.
Good luck with it.
All the best. Rich.

What I used was/is two 1" plastic space from O'Riellys. Could not get them to stay stacked. Had to glue then together and to the air filter base. They still didn't stay put!
Summit has <summitracing.com/parts/trd-2380> 2" spacer that maybe would work better.... It I have the clearance under the dog house will be the question.

[LimeyRich]

Yep, had the same exact problems with trying to keep my stock Airstream filter. Finally just bought a 4" high x 14" Spectre unit with a 1'' highrise base plate,works fine. When I have a little personal breathing room I may adapt the stock filter. Or buy an air enclosure with dual 4" air horns.
Keeping the Banks unit for your improved cold air flow is more important though.
All the best. Rich.

[choctawmel]

I talked to the machinist. Going to bore to .030 over. That's 488.9ci.
Ordered the rotating parts with compression ratio of 8.55:1.
Ordered the hydraulic roller cam.
Ordered the Edelbrock 2161 w/o ERG.
Picked up the HV oil pump and pickup screen at O'Rielly's.
Still need:
Gasket, seal set.
Head bolts, header bolts
Check on aluminum HV water pumps. Warranty's run from 30 days to 1 year. Case iron comes with lifetime warranty. Got to think about this one.
Now I just hope the machining don't take too long. Already starting to forget what it looked like all in one piece.
mel

[bkahler]

Originally Posted by choctawmel

I talked to the machinist. Going to bore to .030 over. That's 488.9ci.
Ordered the rotating parts with compression ratio of 8.55:1.
Ordered the hydraulic roller cam.

Which cam are you using?

Ordered the Edelbrock 2161 w/o ERG.
Picked up the HV oil pump and pickup screen at O'Rielly's.
Still need:
Gasket, seal set.
Head bolts, header bolts
Check on aluminum HV water pumps. Warranty's run from 30 days to 1 year. Case iron comes with lifetime warranty. Got to think about this one.
Now I just hope the machining don't take too long. Already starting to forget what it looked like all in one piece.
mel

Do you have headers or are you going to run headers?

The cast iron water pump is so cheap it's hard to pass it up. Our 310 never has run hot and it runs all stock components. The temperature only climbs above 200 when towing in the mountains and even then 220 is about tops.

[choctawmel]

This is the printout for the cam. Not sure if it will be readable on this post.
I do have the 'Banks' headers, which are getting power coated, and the 'Banks' fresh air inlet/air cleaner housing w/K&N air filter.

[choctawmel]

What I've been up to, parts I have:
Edelbrock #2161 aluminum intake- 11-13-12
Comp-Cam- 11-19-12
Aluminum HV water pump- 11-21-12
Seal/gasket set- 11-21-12
Still waiting:
Stroker Kit- may ship Monday, haven't balanced all the parts yet???? Dang! They sell this stuff 'balanced', why not have them already balanced?
Block- need pistons from stroker kit before he can bore the block.
So, here I set, waiting for UPS.
Think I'll just eat a whole bunch of turkey, drink some beer and watch a football game. As I think about that aluminum radiator.
Happy Thanksgiving!!!!!

[gunner]

bkahler, you may want to reconsider purchasing an edelbrock cam. I had to replace two new edelbrock cams purchased new for my 327 engine since both failed (worn lobe) in less than 100 miles. Was told they are manufactured in Mexico and weren't heat treated properly. Went with Comp-cam and have had no problems since.

[vswingfield]

I wanted to bring this back up. The timing gears are a weak point. Get a quality roller timing chain set. I didn't see a chain set on your list yet (if I overlooked it, my apologies).

I wanted to drop in one other thing. One of, if not the very, top brands of timing sets is Cloyes (at Summit Racing for instance). Their True Roller timing sets are something of a standard. The thing is, Cloyes makes almost all the timing gears in America. They build the gears and put them in bins. When they fill orders, they take the appropriate box and pull gears from the bin. So they pull the same gears and chains and ship, for example, 14 Cloyes, 22 NAPA, 30 TRW, etc... So no matter who you buy a roller set from, you are getting the same product. So if you find a better price, on say TRW than Cloyes, go for it.

Cloyes factories are in Paris (my home town) and Subiaco (5 miles down AR22), Arkansas. Lots of people I know have worked there.

Originally Posted by Keyair

Awesome progress and writeup Choc!

I have pulled at least 2 454's out of their resting places(Suburbans)...
You comment about the oil fill tube had me thinking...
Did you mean the dipstick tube?
If so, it is like the ones I have done, they are a push fit, but do have a tab that is under one of the header bolts.

When you have the motor out, I want to see how your timing gears look...
On my '87 'Burb, they disintegrated....Common issue... You will be happy if you find it early!


The stock cam gear is aluminum couted with nylon/plastic for quietness..
The plastic gets brittle with age, and breaks up, allowing the chain to eat the sprocket..
Oh, and whilst its doing that it drops this kinda stuff into the oil pan...


I didn't, leaving me with this to fix...