Help on engine
 

Moderator: Please move over to mechanics section as I have strayed too far to remain under General. Thanks Ron

I am placing this under general rather than engines because I need some good info from anyone with experience. I have bought a beautiful motor home with engine problems. Everything seemed ok and rember this thing is new to me. Normal, until I opened the airclearner up and found oil, lots of oil. Evidently the unit has a collapsed set of oil rings and is pumping to the point in 500 miles it is saturating the filter and blow by has been diagnoised as excessive. Unit has only 63000 miles. My question is if no damage is found how hard is it to do a ring and valve job while still in the coach. I have a good aquantance who does all my boat work for me including engines but he has not done a MH. His shop will accomadate the coach but little room is left. Can he get to the heads and cylinders to do a good overhau assuming he finds no cylinder damage? Is there anything special he needs to know or tricks to access. From boat engines we have seen this happen when the unit overheated and collapsed the oil rings leaving the rest of motor ok. Most of the time on a relative low mileage engine the cylinder wear is minimal. Access is our big question for this type of repair. Ron

not a lot of room in the unit to do an in frame repair as you describe. i don't know if it could be done. never heard of any one doing or trying to do an rebuild without pulling motor. i have a problem with my coach and i plan to pull the motor and have the motor rebuilt or replaced next month.

Woo, does anybody have any experience with this? Best I can come is to relate experience of a blown engine in a school bus. They basically pulled off the bumper and front cowling, and the engine would slide forward and out. The mechanics said that it was actually easier to pull the school bus motor than to pull the motor on some cars.
:)
L

If there is oil in the air cleaner compression is going past 2 sets of compression rings, I think you have more problems than oil rings.

You should be able to re-ring the engine in the frame, but it would be easier to do on a stand. The engine will have to come way up to pull the pan. Then you will have to work around the crossmember to get the rods back on the crank. You will also have to deal with the mess from rebuilding an engine in the cockpit of your motorhome, and it is a dirty job. And I still think you are going to find a ridge at the top of the cylinder because of the excessive blow by. You also need to think about what you will find on the crank journals, my thought would be low on oil with that mileage, the cylinders are pretty much splash lubed.

John

If you have to replace the rings on the motor,pull it it will save you time and money in the long run. What I would do first is to check the PVC system first , a cracked hose and a bad PVC could cause some problems in there. Also a stuck rings could be the problem. Try some Rislone or some Marvel Mystery oil.Good Luck

Just a little follow up. After I got home with the rig which is new to me we pulled the air filter and that was the first hint of a serious problem. Noticed that someone had recently changed air filter since other than being paritallyoil soaked was begining to tell on previous owner. Noticed a new pvc valve had been installed as someone before me was finding a problem and wanted to eliminate that possibility. I swear the engine sounds ok to me at idle. At a good freinds urging, he is a long time mechanic, we pulled the oil filter cover off and proceded to take the unit out for a ride with dog house open. Under load the spewing out from the pvc hose into the air filter housing began and an oil mist and smoke fill the unit and set off the smoke alarm rather quickly. At idle the pvc system absorbs all the mist and handles all it can until blow by under load exceeds the capacity of the new pvc valve and system. The amount of oil in the air canaster, maybe an ounce or so was the result of about 700 miles of travel. Except a slight smell the night I took the unit I did not have a clue as to a problem. I attributed that to a possible leaky valve cover gasket. I swear I looked in the mirrow during the trip and saw no black smoke. Amazingly other mechanics had worked on the unit installing a heater core and did not notice what ever is going on. My friend rightly predicted when the spewing would start under load even though nothing was apparent at ide. The unit has suffered some failure but I hope it is early enough that if we can get the engine out we can correct it. During the trip to get the unit I kept my eye on temp and oil and never saw anything unusual except an occasional flicker off of 40lbs of the oil pressure guage over the last 60 miles. My friend says that he may detect (hear)one cylinder low from his experiences but won't be able to really know anything until the engine is apart. There is no clicking, clanging, or any notice of oil starvation. He, thinks that the oil rings for sure are gone, possibly a cracked piston??, all the problems that were caused by something only known to the previous owner who had changed the items mentioned and possibly headed down to quickly trade it off. I sure wish my friend had a way to get that engine out of the unit as he has done some mighty find rebuilds on car engines and boats over his 50 years in the business. I will pass all your info on to him as to how to best proceed and like any good friend will try to keep my cool and stay away for a few days unitil that part is figured out. Maybe he can rent some lifts to pick up the engine but he and I are both new to the game on MHs this will be difficult learning curve. I crawled under today and see what many of you are saying about how hard that would be. I also read in the search that some have taken the front door off and removed the chair and used some kind of crane that I know nothing of to lift the engine out. Please amplify. Does that apply to this model? That must be some special cherry picker to do that. I will again pass along all comments. Ron

I hate beating a dead horse but....Take a look at the intake gaskets/the intake it self.If they are bad or cracked you can pull oil though the intake. 63000 mile is not alot on a B.B. if it was we all be in trouble.

If it were me, I'd want to know for sure what was wrong before I took it out. Does your guy have a leakdown gauge? It would be worth an hour. You could even drill out the bottom of an old sparkplug and stick it on the end of your compressor line. If you hear rushing air when you open the oil filler cap, then you're right about the rings. Be a shame to rering when the problem is elsewhere. Does have all the symptoms of having been overheated, though. Does it have a new waterpump or radiator?

Some good detetive work going on here. Yes, the heater core had gone out and was bypassed. That is the only clue I can think off that would support the overheat theory. Overheat first kill oil rings, right???? That is my friend, mechanic's, thought. Keep up the ideas as I will give him a copy of this tomorrow.

Right! Now I remember my father -- devoted pilot and aircraft mechanic that he is -- talking about a blowdown compression test (not leakdown, if it makes a difference). Trying to figure out what was with my old VW, he hooked it up and spotted what was going on immediately.

Might want to check with a local aircraft mechanic to get the tool?

:)
Lynn

Overheating usually warps or cracks heads, that is where the most heat from combustion is, no coolant flow and they suffer the first damage. If your buddy does engines he must have a compression tester. I don't think you will need a leakdown test if there is oil in the air cleaner.

One other thing that can cause this is removing the baffle under the pcv. Look down through the grommet and there should be a piece of metal to keep the oil from splashing up into the pcv.

John

Help on engine
 

I'm no mechanic. I don't have a motorhome.

But just in case its something simple, did you check the oil returns, where the oil drains back to the crankcase. If these were plugged by a piece of paper or something it could foamulate (new word) your oil and aspirate it thru the PCV valve.

Not likely, but sure would be a quick fix.

First, I should give my long time mechanic friend a name which is Allen. He strongly thinks we need to get into engine but I am sure he will make a few tests to confirm. I saw the blowby and unfortunately it is bad. Seeing the oil filter float around in a pool of oil gives me a sick feeling instead of the joy of a new motor home. Amazingly the engine runs as well as it does. I guess that is why no body caught it. Allen reminded me that at a car auction the first thing buyers are trained to do is open up the air filter container and check for blowby. Now he tells me. Airstream is going to check into access on this model to see the best approach and it probably will be as many of you have outlined. I will keep everyone informed. Ron

The only reason I'd want to know all the secrets before pulling the motor is - what if you only have 1 bad hole? I broke a ring land on my Suburban and it blew oil under load. At idle and low speed it was fine. Compression was 120, when the others were 150. We put air in the cylinder, heard nothing out the exhaust, nothing out the intake, but it sounded like there was a snake in the valve cover when we took the filler cap off. Squirted 4-5 pumps of oil into the low cylinder and compression came up, but after 15 seconds or so, it still hissed. We replaced only that piston and all was well. That was 40K ago. Still drive it.

On the other hand, a nice crate 502 would be nice.

First Quote folks: Manufacturer J--------, installed locally 75K and 3 years with RV cam and complete. $4800. Taking it to another place for anaylsis and all the things you guys have talked about. Let You know more soon! R&R part of that is $800. I sure hope those guys know what they are in for.

Ditto John on the valve cover baffle. I does sound like you have ring problems though. If the baffle is in place and you are getting that much oil in the filter housing, then you probably have more than one piston with bad rings.

On the other hand, if you are missing the baffle, it is quite possible that you could have a relatively healthy engine. One of my muscle cars had a set of unbaffled valve covers on it and it would completely soak the breather in short order-the motor was fine (new), the lack of a baffle was the issue. I would still recommend your mechanic to check it out as most motor homes are abused rather than cared for. . .ie. long trips, no oil change, put up for months at a time and then expected to do it all over again.


Tripp

Well thats all folks! Engine has been diagnoised as terminal. And at such a young age of only 63000 miles. Even a wonderful engine needs maintenance such as regular oil changes and a owner who makes sure that overheating does not occur. Second mechanic says it is a classic case of neglect. An old probe under the cover was obviously used to check a known overheat condition which was not corrected in time. Sludge and oil marks suggest negeleted oil changes. Who would believe an owner would buy a Beautiful Airstream Motorhome keep it immaculate inside but totally ignor the engine compartment. Engine flunked all tests as suggested in all of your comments and defied all odds by only making it to 63K. Or maybe that is what one can expect without appreciable service. May that engine rest in piece and short life remind to all that engine oil changing, antifreeze change out and other normal engine service is absolutely essential.

A new RV Jasper Engine is on order and though it is a tough financial pill to swallow, it is approrpriate that the Airstream Receive her new heart in time for Valentines Day! Estimate about $5K. Ron

Access on these 90's models for engine change are only out the driver door per customer service at Airstream. Access is tight and may require removing items from normal long block. I will know in a week what can and cannot be passed through the little hole. Classics are out the front. I am sure a lot of you all ready know this. Airstream does not remember changing an engine at the factory on one of the 90's Land Yacht.

Cancel your Jasper engine.

If you dso some searching you can get a GM CRATE for about the same price with a 50K 36 month warranty. (about $2400)

... and the GM engine will be NEW. You might even look for the BB designed for towing. Tons (literary license!) of torque. Excellent warranty at any GM dealer.

Take care,

Well I fell for the pitch and bought the deluxe RV model which is a K higher for such things as Stellite Exhaust Valves, RV Cam, and other stuff. I just thought I would give myself a treat after the beating I took on the failure. I had one of the deluxe RV versions before in a Ford big engine and it sure out performed the standard 460 that I had before and since. Maybe I am wasting a little money endulging but boy is the rest of my unit clean and nice. I am even putting thin screen HDTV in since broadcast is in my background. The guy I bought the unit from (Dealer) is only making good on a fraction of the engine cost so the bulk is on me. The mechanic would do any of those mentioned including redoing my questionable core. Warranty is nationwide also and is 3 yr/75K. I hope I made a good decision. The new engine is built and will be here Wednesday. I sure do appreciate hearing from everyone and getting the advice and believe me it was most helpful. The most important advice I can give anyone considering buying a motor home is open up the air cleaner, start the engine, place the unit in gear and make sure you do not have excessive blow by. I can not believe I didn't do this. I am still having a hard time accepting that this nice of a 93 model with only 63000 miles could have a blown engine. Ron

Ohhh I see the problem...It had a Ford engine!


Ididn't say that did I?

Sorry the chevy guy in me coming out. I wasn't clear on what motor you had.


That's a great warranty. Hard to beat that.

My next go around I thing will be deisel. I am liking that Cummings TD. Heck of a motor. LOTS of perforamce parts available. I would think it would be a good motor for a Motor Home. It's a I 6 and can easily be up to 500 repliable HP with 800lbft of torque. The I configuration would make working on it easier as long as it has the head room. Only down side is the noise with that sitting right next to you.

This is my first 454. The only problem I had with the 460 Ford was the carb. The engine ran ok but I couldn't keep that from leaking gas. I built up a chevy 350 myself for a tow for my Avion years ago and that was the best engine I ever had. Built it from it from junk yard block, had it bored, shaved the head a little, etc. Man did it pull that Avion. Since then I have owned one of just about everything and my favorite engine is the 98 Corvette, 98 Doodge 360, and a 327 in my Plastic Avalanche. I had a couple of GM diesels which were good except the Russo oil pumps were ruined by cheap GM design in the 80's. I got tired of the diesels because of the relatively low hp output to weight, the price of diesel climbed, and the addition of fuel injection to gas engines increased there mileage so much that the MPG advantage wasn't as big an incentive. I like the Cummins, the Cats, Perkins etc, but there is a little more of a disadvantage to operation with diesels. Saying that, I can't imagine I would want to turn down one of those big fancy diesel pushers that just sort of rumble along with class. I don't think it fair to judge this 454 that someone abused, so I shall wait a few more weeks to try a totally redone RV version of the 454. I will attempt to judge it as if I had never driven the old one first. I bet I will like it as much as most of you do here on this forum, especially in the new to me Airstream.

Well the one achillies heel of the 454 is they had some oiling problems on the cam and that cause a lot of flat lobes. When they started with the factory roller cam that problem seems to have gone away. There is a relativly easy fix available to get a little more oil on the cam to help prevent this. It's a tube that is tapped into the oil galley and lays in the valley above the cam. It has some pin holes in it to spray oil on the cam. Jegs and Summit both have kits all though you can make one pretty easy with a small copper line and some fittings.

It's a impressive motor even stock. Lots of torque at very low RPM's. My 88 Sub is laying down 385lbft at 1600RPM and the torque curve stays very flat up to about 2500. In my sub I run away from traffic at the lights with 1/8 throttle and the engine is not even breathing hard making 2400 RPM shifts.

Them poor kids their little hot rod ricers with fart pipes just get so mad when they think they are going to jump the light. I honestly am not trying to drag race them. Truck is just pulling very strong in that RPM range. They haven't got a chance if I give it more then half throttle. LOL
Displacement is a nasty addiction.

Toaster and All you who like that 454,
I bet I will be impressed as well. I sure hope the RV version is a real good choice for the extra Bucks. Yes the standard Jasper 454 for a P30 is a lot less dough. I also hope the Jasper people arn't just blowing smoke for that extra thousand. They talk a good story and I hope the extra torque is not at the expense of a rougher idle. We AS people are pretty close to our motors and the stock motor is pretty smooth. Maybe somebody else on this forum has tried a Jasper RV version or something similiar and knows what to expect. Chrome plated vlaves, extra hard stalite exhaust valves, RV cam, better balanced pistons and cranks, accurate oiling, and closer tolerences are all great only if it translates into better performance as in: more poweful acceleration and climbs, greater mpg, and a longer life RV engine. As far as a 75K Warranty, I do not care as I probably will only get to about 10K in three years if I am lucky. I also do not plan to enter my vehicle in the Daytona 500. I havn't made great decisions so far so I am due one now. Anybody think I wasted an extra K for nothing. Ron

You can't go wrong with a Jasper motor. I have installed a few other brands of rebuild with not much luck.As for the GM crate real nice deal but a very short warranty.Spent the extra dollars with Jasper it's worth it.Good luck

Reading back on all your posts I noticed that many of you including fangthorpe talked about repairs on the engine in the vehicle. He is probably right in many cases that a unique failure in an engine especially a relatively low mileage one could be taken care in one hole and maybe still in the vehicle. Those of you that have the Land Yacht and Classic models are at a disadvantage as far as accomplishing that. The Suburban is relatively easy to work on and gain engine access compared to these MHs. My previous experence with RVs is towing as well. That brings me to this last comment about you guys that tow. A Suburban driver that can drop the tow must be like a Corvette driver with that big engine. The MH on the other hand never gets to enjoy the rush of rapid acceleration. We will just have to find another way to get that boyhood thrill that never seems to go away even at age 62.

Engine came out through the drivers open door with manifolds still attached. Update on installation in 1993 Land Yacht.

Now I would have liked to have seen that!

As for the Hot rod and acceleration stuff. Just need more displacement. 502 Ram Jet would do nice. Then make a Plexi Glass engine hatch. At the campground your lady can show off the coach to other Ladys and us guys could all gather around the 502 under glass and watch you rev it up. :D

Ron,
Now's the time to install headers too. The banks are great you will be supprised at the power with the new motor and headers.

Good Luck
Don

UPDATE on Jasper Engine
 

Unit should be back in my hands this week Feb 16-20th if things continue smoothly. While in shop, Transmission fluid change and check out of major systems. Alternator was changed before so all that needs replacement (we hope) is leaky power steering pump, and the usual Plat Plugs, Delco Disb Cap, Rotor, Thermostat, belts, hoses, and minor items. Starting with Mobile One as the Jasper has been test run all ready at the Factory. I will keep you informed with further info as it becomes available. I Think I am supposed to get a data sheet on static run and if so I will be glad to share that. Ron

Don't put the synthetic in so soon, no matter what they tell you about the motor being pre-run. It's so slippery it will prevent the rings from wearing in the crosshatch pattern on the cylinder walls and you'll either smoke or leak. Wait a couple of oil changes.

radiator
 

I am sure you and your mechanic are on top of it, but as a friendly reminder, the radiator working near 100% with maybe a water wetter is very important with 454's....heat is a killer....lol..jem

Sounds like a couple of good tips. I think you may be right on the oil. I really don't know how long the engine has been pre-run so I had better check on that. I do want a good break in. The last thing I want is another engine pumping oil. I suspect problems in the cooling system may have hastenened the early departure of the other engine so I do want to make sure the entire system is tight and has no leaks. Per our previous posts the cooling system will contain distilled water and quality antifreeze and I will be looking for any possible indication of further problems. The heater core which was just replaced may have been a contributing factor in the demise of the other engine . I will never know as this predates my ownership.
I appreciate the comments which reminded me to check on hoses and belts as well. Probably all ready taken care of by the Shop but never hurts to check. Matter of fact I will do that today. Today happened: New engine mounted and proceeding well. Should be able to be started tomorrow. Went in as easy as it came out through the drivers door. NAPA oil until we do an old fashioned break in as suggested. I'll try to get two or three hundered miles on her before we head out on a long trip. Probably monitor the heat gauge, oil pressure and oil level closely during the break in and then change oil so I can inspect it. As a Pilot I usually like to fly over the airport and not stray to far when I do an engine change. Hopefully I can catch any potential problem before I head out. I am expectedly gun shy after my recent experiences and only wish I had a few more instruments to monitor. You know, like egt, cht, manifold pressure or even a tachometer. They don't give you too much on these Land Yachts and P30 chassis.

please keep posting info
 

Please let us know the results of your efforts. Especially the Jasper RV engine and how it goes...lol.....jem

Yes, I will continue to update. Today, little to report since garage is very busy and they pulled off to take care of other business. I have been flexible on my deadline and really haven't been pushing them. That said, they know I need my unit by this weekend so I can get my test run in. Mechanic has an excellent reputation in the community so I expect my patence to be rewarded with a top job. I do relay that the job has gone smoothly so far and engine R & R was routine for them. Belts are on and next step is intake mainfold and TBI. Japer is supposed to give us all a report on performance on the RV model and a comparison to their standard P30 engine. All I have so far is a vague claim of 10% increase in HP and Torque, but I am waiting for the info from Jasper in written form so I can post it for comment here. Then it will be interesting to see how many AS people would pay the extra $918 difference to specify the RV model when they can still get the standard Jasper version. The engine changes are all internal so one can not physically see anything different from the engine that came with our Airstreams. I feel like a kid on Christmas Eve hoping that Morning comes soon!

Got MH back late this afternoon and it seems OK except a small tick like a very small exhaust leak. Might be something else but appears to be very minor and I will get that taken care of tomorrow. We could only notice this problem by running the unit with the engine cover off. Mechanic found another problem during test drive which also may explain some of why old engine met early demise. Temperature gage indication was a bit high on initial test drive and auxilary electric fan could barely keep engine in the normal zone. Mechanic quickly diagnosed that fan clutch was defective and I approved replacement. Within an hour the the old clutch was replaced and 2nd test drive commenced. This time the engine reached operating temperature and gauge showed a steady normal 210 degree Zone. The temperature activated electric fan did not even come on. You could see the thermostat doing its thing and cycling as it should. HMM! Someone has added the accessory electric fan because the engine was running hot but didn't catch low airflow at high temperature of engine driven fan. WARNINGl, the electric fan is a nice addition, but will not cool the engine by itself. After mechanic replaced the fan clutch, the electric fan in front of the radiator was spinning almost as if it was activated even though it was not. The engine was up to temperature and the draft from the properly operating engine driven fan was moving the air as it should. That old fan will fool many of us, while the defective fan clutch appeared to be working fine at lower temperatures the clutch was not holding at higher temperatures . Folks this mechanic is good. Now the cost including replacement of engine, water pump, fan clutch, power steering pump, and miscellaneous including transmission service comes to $5360. Of that, $4038 was the Jasper MH engine. I provided plugs, wires, distributor cap and rotor, distilled water and antifreeze. Stuff I had on hand. What do you think? I am heading out next week. Ron:)

Ron
 

A classic mistake made by many motorhome owners is to neglect the engine.

I met a man that was proud because he changed the oil once a year simply because he drove it about 3K miles each year! I cannot attest to the condition of his engine, but I bet it is nowhere near "good" for 40K miles.

I also witness people run the engine <10 minutes or so "every so often" during the off-season period. I have been told that this just makes the engine run under severe conditions caused by thick oil not warming up the optimal viscosity.

I believe the right way to do it is to drive the MH for 20 minutes at least once each month. This will allow the engine to heat-up to operating temperature and burn off any moisture that may accumulate in the engine.

I am glad you are going to use a synthetic oil. I have found the small additional cost to be worthwhile as I am approaching 140K (Suburban) without a problem. In fact, I use synthetic transmission fluid (about $5/quart at Autozone), too.

Rick:)

labor very reasonable
 

Seems to me that the labor was very reasonable, particularly since you feel the mechanic is top notch....the reasonable labor certainly off sets off some of the RV engine extra fee....congratulations and good luck....jem

UPDATE: As we suspected the tick was a small leak somewhere on the starboard side exhaust manifold. All the bolts on that side were rechecked and tightened. After each bolt was torqued we listened. The last forward bolt did the trick and check was handed over. Mechanic then thanked me for my business , gave me a quality questionaire on his service and I headed out the door with a 3 Yr/75K Warranty which I hope I do not have to use. The engine is smooth, quiet, and has plenty of power. We drove the AS around town today as if it were a sports car to see how it feels with the new Jasper RV 454. It feels great! We accelerated up the steep hill of the town bypass and were surprised to see a few cars falling off in the rear view mirror. I was very impressed with the smoothness of the new engine going up the hill. I opened up the air cleaner and celebrated finding no blowby. By gosh the rings have all ready seated. A non motor home mechanic friend and I probably put 50 or so miles on her today. We ran her through all the things that we were taught about breaking in an engine. The shop had all ready done most of those things but we did them again. Its early but I like what I see and feel. Let you know more after a trip or so. Yes, I would definitely recommend this shop and as far as the Jasper Engine, so far so good, I'll let you know in a few thousand miles. :D Thanks Everyone for your advice and encouragement.

Rick
 

Your 20 minutes is probably right. Many people forget that the exhaust system, including catalytic converter, muffler and tail pipes must heat up enough to evaporate any water that condenses in the system. I'm sure you have followed another vehicle early in the morning and seen water dripping out their tail pipe. Water sets up rust from the inside and there goes the muffler as well as other exhaust parts.

454 intake manifold
 

A item I have noticed on a older 454 was a cracked intake manifold. The crack was found under the baffle on the bottom side of the intake. A friend of ours replaced two long blocks before he discovered the leaking intake manifold was causing the engine to run lean on a couple of cylinders and self destructing. Lots of egg on the face on this one.

Joe

I second the "drive it 20 minutes" thing, although I go to the extent of a once a week drive for full warm up with generator on and under load.
So many low mileage mh's are on the market when low mileage may not be a big advantage if the thing has been sitting idle a lot.
Mine had its engine replaced at 50,000 miles by the first owner, and I would guess he didn't use it much either, as it was about 8 years old at the time.
Since then it as had more steady use, although only gained another 50,000.
I think of a weekly or bi-weekly run as cheap insurance, and will change the oil in early spring, although it was changed before the winter as well. After reading the adventures of our members with 5000 plus expenses on new motors, I hope to prolong the life of mine as much as I can with maintenance and exercise.
Hey, I do that to myself as well:)

new 502
 

I have just gone through everything all of you have been talking about. First I had low compression on one cylinder. I had the valves ground and new valve guides. Then I install the heads and that was when the piston went out. The shop that has been doing the work said that they have replaced motor home engines with between 40 to 60 k miles. It seems that that is how long the 454 will last if not used alot. The method of replacement is to remove it from below. That requires removing just about everything around the engine.
We are now installing a new 502 crate engine. This requires a different intake manifold and gear in the distributor. The mechanic has replaced two other 454’s with 502’s and he said there is a world of difference in the power and low end torque. I really should have just rebuilt the 454 as I have redone the heads and had only one bad cylinder. It looked like the engine had been run lean. It may have been the intake manifold or carburetor. I like to tow a car and want to make sure that there was plenty of power. I will let u know how the 502 does.

Hmmmmm.....
 

Joepop got at his Isuzu/cummins from underneath, as did jfuller.
Thenewkid64's came out the front, as did most of the other documented engine removals (except for 74Argosy24MH, who took the whole body off and lifted the engine out with a cherry picker:D ).

I guess it appears it could be done either way.

I, for one, would appreciate some input from those who have "been there and done that".....for example, if someone has gone the "drop it out the bottom" route, would you use that method again?, or try to pull it out the front.....same question for those who have gone through the front removal, would you try the underneath method?

Most of us are in the position of being "just one hard pull" from an engine replacement.

Thanks.

Hmmmmm.....Hmmmmm.....
 

Me too, especially as I appear to be the least well wrapped in my approach. But I did sandblast the frame and replace the floor and some rusted supports, does that make up for my mental deficiency?:)

I have pulled van engines out the front, but would like to know how the out the bottom guys did it. Over a pit, with a lift, jack the coach for clearance, drop the whole front crossmember and engine?

John

R and R engine out the bottom
 

To remove the engine from our 310 I removed the front seats and then the entertainment center. Then I removed the grille and the coolers. This opens up the engine compartment big time. I next removed the transmisson assembly and then Jacked the unit up high enough to allow room for the engine to drop out the bottom. I built a framework inside the cab and used a chain hoist to lower the engine out of the chassis. The engine had to be worked back toward the rear of the unit and was lowered flywheel end down first. The engine is actually standing on end as it is lowered to the ground. I leveled it onto a pallet and slid it out from under the unit. The Cummins went back in the same way. I dont know if this is the easiest way but that is the way I handled it. I would propably do it again if I ever had to remove the cummins. I dont think the cummins will ever come back out of the unit as it only has 610,000 miles on it and runs very nicely. Joe

Follow up on the 90s Land Yacht with 454, Randy(owner) of Heber Springs Truck and Deisel says my R & R took 20 hrs and the old and new engines went out and in easily with exhaust manifolds attached. If someone is doing a similar job he would be glad to pass along his procedure. (Heber Springs, Arkansas) Briefly on this model you remove the driver's seat, remove the TBI, attach to crane and use two people to muscle the engine clear as the cherry picker lifts her through the hole. Unlike other AS models mentioned this model is definitely over the top. If anyone needs Randys # I will provide it. Ron

Guys, Here is a performance update after two days on the road: Engine purring very well and taking us from Arkansas to Florida. Only made it to Pensacola so far which is a little over 500 miles. MPG is running between 8.9 and 10. Needless to say I am pleased so far. The Jasper MH engine with the RV cam is quietly winning me over. My only other Modification is the K & N filter. As previously reported, I paid $918 over the stock Jasper version of the P30 model engine. I did not ask about the additonal MPG of this version but if the mileage I am currently getting proves itself over the whole trip I will be convinced that it is worth it. Now the Weather is not doing so well as it has been rainy and cold down to this point. Should be in Orlando tomorrow after staying at the KOA just So of Pensacola. Jasper is promising a written statement of features and performance benefits of the Motor Home model over the standard model they offer. We assume this standard Jasper 454 is equivilent to the orginals that came in our Airstreams. Will Post that info when I receive it for your consideration. :D Ron

UPDATE AFTER FORIDA TRIP AND 3000 miles. Yes I made it and the new Jasper Engine did fine. I did encounter problems not related to the new engine but they were only to be found by using the MH on a trip. I can now recommend the Jasper MH version of the 454. I did get info from Jasper to pass along to those interested so you would know what you are paying for and what you are getting. The MH version is basically a preminum rebuild with lots more labor in balancing and putting the engine back to a higher tolerence. That still leaves the question as to what satisfaction I would have received if I had payed $910 less and got the standard P30 version. I am happy with my result of the MH engine which is very smooth and purrs like a Kitten. The different MH cam and the better balance is the only Jasper claimed variance from standard. This model is supposed to produce 10-15% more low end torque than our standard P30 models. Jasper says the $910 is mainly increased labor to make this version. If they are correct, their attention to detail and the owners diligent efforts on maintenance should produce a long happy life for my new engine. Now the things I learned: My 1993 AS on the 1992 chassis does not have a transmission cooler. I also obsereved that a 1994 model I encountered on my trip did have one. I do not know if that was added or whatever, but I will have one for my next trip. My shocks are totally gone! I will have new ones for my next trip. My power brakes and power steering failed when a mount rubbed against my new power steering pump and caused it to fail and leak out all the fluid. I was in heavy traffic and high winds and control was barely possible. I will never leave without checking all systems are installed correctly. Our P30 chassis depends on the power steering and it is not safe without a perfectly operating system including the dumb parking brake which is interconnected. Ron

thanks for the info!
 

Ron...
I always feel good getting first hand info on motorhome services as I am driving a 20 year old unit, happily and gladly, but realize I can use all the experiences I can get.....thanks for the update...jem

Leading the pack
 

Ron,
I agree! Good to know someone else has done this before. We'll all face engine replacement at some point if we plan to hold onto our AS MH's.

On the trans cooler. Check for what look like brake lines coming up from the transmissions into your radiator. Our rigs are nearly a decade apart but many of our MH's have an integrated oil and trans cooler in the radiator. Some, like mine, also have an additional "air cooled" aux trans cooler installed as well.

Regarding your other issues. Not really sure if this will make you feel better or worse...but I've had my 345 since July and am still chasing gremlins out of the chassis. Water pump, shocks, air system parts, u joints, master cylinder were all replaced after noticing "issues" on trips. I also had a long list of systems that did not work when I bought the coach and with some diagnostics, cleaning a few parts and a TON of advice from members of this forum all of our systems are running reliably! Tinkering and learning about these rigs is just part of the fun.

Seems like I fix a round of things, take a road trip and notice a few more. I was joking with a friend today that now that I fixed the big exhaust leak I can hear the other three small leaks! :)

The good news is that every trip is completed in an increasingly reliable rig. You are off to a great start with a new powerplant. Enjoy it and I hope you keep those mileage numbers up!

new 502
 

well, I have the 502 installed and the air bag value working. WOW, it is nice to have it on the raod again. The cost of replacing the 454 with a 502 is rather high. I figure that it will come out at $8000. That includes adding both an oil cooler and a trans. cooler. I had to replace in intake manifold and there was a problem with the dog house. I have the banks system and the aircleaner was to high. We had to modify the dog house to get it to clear. There was a lot of labor to get the 454 out and the 502 in but it fit like a dream. I have only run it about 100 miles but at 60mph it is now running a 2600 rpm where with the 454 it was running 3000 rpm. I now have real power on hills. I can't believe the power. This is also true at start up, it will go just about as fast as u want to go....at least for me. I still have the old 454 and may rebuild it and sell it. I have not decided. I was real supprised when the 454 had major problems at only 65,000.
It was a stuck value, this caused the piston not to fire and then thin the oil and well, score the piston and the walls. But I love the feel of the extra power and the fact the it is a new engine.:) :)

Re: new 502
 

It's not possible for the engine to have caused a REAL RPM change a that speed. Either the Tach has started mis reading OR the transmission was slipping and now it isn't. The speedometer is driven off the back of the transmission just before the drive shaft. There is no possiblity for slipage there without lots of expensive parts failing.

The transmssion, as long as it isn't slipping, is also going to be a constant till it gets to the torque converter. So the only place that for a given gear that there is anway for the engine and transmssions to be running different RPM's after the change is the torque converter. Everything else is a solid connection.

How was the flud in the transmission? If it was burnt then that would be your answer. The new fluid and the cooler temps have changed the slippage in the transmssion.

I would pay close attention to the transmission. It may have one foot in the grave.

I'm told the 454 and 502 are the same casting . larger pistons and different heads. for higher compression.???

A stroked 454 is a 496 (8.1 liter). A stroked and bored 454 is a 502.
All 502s use 91 octane.

For the Record
 

The 502 is simply a bored out 454. Stroke is the same (4.00"), but the bore is much larger (4.468") vs stock (4.250"). The block is different as the bores are siamesed (sic) similar the the small block 400. This allows the larger bore.

The only time height should come into question is if you are using a heavy duyt truck (6500 series and up) 454,427,402 block as it is taller. Those blocks are used for the really big motors 500-600 cu in. They are known as tall deck blocks. You should never run into them unless you specify one for your buildup. Cost to build is significantly higher than the std. block.

Octane rating is dependent on many factors, however, size alone is not the determining factor. Compression ratio, timing, head material, etc. all drive the octane equation. A 502 with stock or near stock compression of the 454 , timed correctly, should run on regular fuel. Increased compression and a performance cam might dictate a change to higher octane fuel. Ask the builder what is recommended. Higher octane used in an engine that does not require it, is wasting money. Your engine doesn't care so long as it doesn't detonate and knock.

Take care,

Crate engine
 

I see a lot of posts about crate engines but I don't really know what the term means. I know that rebuilds come in short blocks ( no heads included ) and long blocks (heads included). Just what are "crate engines"

From Wikipedia:

Do crate engines include accessories such as carburetion, alternator, exhaust manifolds, ignition?

You can buy any combination you need in a crate engine. Complete is nice but you have to take the heads and carb/intake off to wiggle it into place anyway....so. It may depend on the condition of your accessories or the size of your budget.
Just remember that most big block rebuilds are for race spec. You have to build for torque at lower rpm's.
Is this what we need?:D

I have been using the 502 for three years now and it is doing eveything I had hoped it would. At 50 mph it is running 400 rpm lower than before and that is also ture at 60 mph. The low end power is great and with a tow car I don't even feel it is there, even going over mountain passes. I did have to change the timing for regular gas. But it runs fine now No real impovement in milage with around 8 mpg with the car and no diffeent with out the car. The dog house had to be rebuilt to clear the air cleaner. I am now sold that it was the right thing to do. jfuller

The improvements in power sound great but I'm baffled as to how the rpms would drop just because of an engine replacement. Did you change the transmission or something else not mentioned?

Brad

What kind of tranny? - Is it a overdrive unit?

Mh Service Garages
 

Is there a nationwide or zone licensed list of AS repair garages ?
I live in Jupiter Florida and want to be able to have a reliable, experienced service outlet to contact for my new-to-me '83 310 TD MH. This would include regular maintenance and or light to heavy repair work.
Any, all responses will be appreciated.

Richard

The Airstream web site will give you a list of Airstream dealers. Few, if any, of these dealers will be able to provide maintenance on your Isuzu engine or Chevy chassis.

For the engine you should find a local shop which works on these engines. You can find an Isuzu truck dealer at the Isuzu Commercial Vehicle web site Isuzu Commercial Vehicles - Dealer Locator.

For the chassis, try a Chevy/GM truck center.

I replace 2 engine in 345
 

I replace 2 engines in 345 takes less than 10 hours pulling through the floor.
Started in the morning on the road that night.

gauges
 

My dad has always had three gauges he drives by. Oil pressure, engine temperature and transmission temperature. Floor the gas and watch the gauges, they will tell you when your outta' hand. He's never had an engine or transmission let him down.
Seriously, the tranny temp will really surprise you on a long incline and if monitored, will make an automatic last forever.

My '87 SOB rv 454 had 104k miles, 5000 hours on the genset, and was PERFECT due to it's regular use and maintenaince, until Katrina ate it. I think lack of use will kill an RV quicker than lack of service.

Driving by the gauges is the name of the game!

Yes, one of the 1st things I want to do is order a kit with 3 gauges and complete wiring kit !

1. Transmission Fluid
drill a hole in the transmission fluid pan and install temperature probe

2. Engine Temp gauge, Cooling Fluid, install in port close to the thermostat as has been recommended

3. Engine Oil Temp gauge

I plan to mount the cluster on the Dash in Clear View over the steering Wheel

My eyes are not what they Were ??? :angry: