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Old 05-17-2005, 03:56 PM   #15
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The belt on the LH side of the engine also needs to go around the crank pulley- crank, water pump, ac compessor, power steering. V belts are what you need. My LH belt is about 60" (Dayco 11A1535 15605 and it could be a little shorter that is why I say about 60"), no smog on mine so my length won't help.

John
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Old 05-17-2005, 10:08 PM   #16
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Thanks John!
Yeah, the more I looked at it the closer I came to that conclusion, this way all three belts hit the drive pulley. Is this what you mean (see picture)?
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Old 05-17-2005, 11:04 PM   #17
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That matches my setup
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Old 05-18-2005, 07:01 AM   #18
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And a third "that's it."

John
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Old 05-18-2005, 08:31 AM   #19
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Logan,
I would add that (at least on mine) the passenger side belt is a wide multi groove belt - bascially a serpentine belt. The others are V-Belts
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Old 05-19-2005, 02:58 PM   #20
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Hey everyone! Thanks for all the help and advice!! Here's what ended up happening...

I was finally able to find a Kragen that would tell me where the belts should go (which pulleys each belt should hit). what they told me is noted in the first image... I tried it and quickly found that the belt from the crank to the AC rubbed on two other pulleys.
So I ended up running it like it is in the second picture. I hope there is no problem with running the AC pump strictly off of the H2O pump...

Thanks again for all the help!! Now I need to tackle the hot start problem (or lack there-of). I think I have it worked out, but as always advice is more than welcome!!
-Logan
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Old 05-19-2005, 03:08 PM   #21
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Stress wise, I don't think the dark blue belt may last as long as you would like.

If the pulley placement in the picture is fairly accurate, there does not appear to be a lot of belt touching the alternator pulley. If you start having weak battery problems, you may need to reconsider it's routing.

But hey! if that's the way its gotta be, then that's the way it is.

Tom
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Old 05-19-2005, 03:10 PM   #22
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That is a lot to drive off 1 belt (water pump, alt, a/c) especially if the batteries are low and you are running the ac. Keep tabs on the long belt.

John
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Old 05-19-2005, 03:48 PM   #23
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Logan,
I would really encourage you to consider another belt where the light blue belt is currently shown (wp to ac). It should also go around the driveshaft pulley and the p/s pump.

Remember that the hydroboost pump in these babies provides power for both the steering and the brakes. If you loose or slip that one belt you're going to have a hard time controlling the rig. (Ask me how I know). I always felt like the belt from the driveshaft to the p/s pump was a "backup" for a failure on the other one.

I'll get you the belt number for that one from my rig.

Now - what's this hot start problem? There are a number of things you can do for this, some require sheilding or starter upgrades...and there is even a service bulletin on the P30 for this problem. (I have it somewhere)
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Old 05-19-2005, 03:54 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swebster
..some require sheilding or starter upgrades...and there is even a service bulletin on the P30 for this problem...
Steven,

If the shielding involves the starter motor, I wouldn't mind hearing more about it when you get a chance to look for the bulletin.

Thanks,
Tom
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Old 05-19-2005, 04:20 PM   #25
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Actually, it's about adding a second relay inline with the starter relay. I know too much about this relay as it was a constant source of failure on mine (mounted to the alternator bracket - it would basically break itself every 1000 miles or so). I can fax the bulletin to anyone who wants it. PM me you're info
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Old 05-19-2005, 04:35 PM   #26
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Belt number 15605
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Old 05-20-2005, 11:35 AM   #27
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The reason I was not comfortable with a big belt that ran from crank-ps-ac-H2O was because of the pulley sizes on the crank and the H2O pump...

There are 3 pulleys on the crank; The first two are the same size and the last one is *about* .5 -.75 inches bigger. The innermost (closest to the engine) pulley on the crank is running only the ps, it is one of the two small pulleys. So on the crank there are only two open spots, one is big and one is small. Now on the H2O pump there are 2 pulleys; one is a little bigger than the other. The small one is close to the engine and the big one is the furthest out. The big one is lined up with the Smog pump, the Alt and the big (outside) pulley on the crank. With one belt running from the crank to the H2O to whatever there is no issue, I figure if you add another one that runs between both the crank and the H2O pump then the pulleys need to be exactly the same size (proportionately). that is not to say that both pulleys on the H2O and both on the Crank need to match each other, but it there is a 6" and a 7" on the crank then the difference between the pulley sizes on the H2O pump need to be proportionately the same difference. If the pulleys on the H2O are also 6" and 7" then there's no issue... I'd have to do the math but if the small pulley on the H2O Pump is BIGGER than the small pulley on the Crank then the big pulley on the H2O pump would need to be MORE than 1" bigger (than the small H2O pulley). Have I completely confused everyone yet? I am NOT entirely positive that these fears are valid, this is just a guess. But the pulley sized didn't *look* like they were exactly proportionate, so I didn't want to risk it. I suppose now that the beast is actually home I could tear off the front end to measure the pulleys...heh. Any input on the subject?



On another note, the hotstart note in fact...



After some thinking and research I think that I have a rather good solution to the problem. The problem happens only when hot, it is a new starter. Some people at AC Delco said that the heat causes higher resistance in the switching wire (from ignition switch) and in turn it can not provide enough current to switch the solenoid on the starter. They said they can get a new "high heat" starter, but I didn't have $150 to throw into this. So I figured there'd be a better solution. In the three images attached (simplified slightly, starter and new solenoid are assumed grounded)...



#1. The way my starter is wired right now.

#2. Idea number one, splice in a solenoid away from the heat that can send full current to the starter solenoid AND to the switching terminal of the starter solenoid via a 2Ga wire.

#3 Leave the original main battery cable connected, add a new (10Ga) wire that runs from the batt+ to the new solenoid to the S terminal on the starter solenoid. Then switch the new solenoid with the same old ignition wire. This plan assumes that enough current can pass through a hot 10Ga wire to switch the starter solenoid. (this idea courtesy a mechanic who sold me a solenoid)



Whatcha' think? I think it'll work! I personally am leaning toward image #2; I'd like to have the assurance of a 2Ga wire that I am gonna’ get enough current down to that switching terminal...



Ideas?

-Logan
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Old 05-20-2005, 01:16 PM   #28
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Logan,
Number 2 is basically what the service bulletin recommends and is how mine is wired. I have a one year old "cheapo" starter from AutoZone and have never had a hot start problem.

One note on the remote solenoid. One style is mounted on a bracket - you do not want this one. On mine it was mounted to the top of the alternator bracket. The vibration from the engine would destroy the solenoid or break the bracket after 1000 - 2000 miles. I went through five of these before I decided to mount this style solenoid to the coach framing in the engine bay, directly above the starter (and above the exhaust manifolds. This other style solenoid has two tabs on it and flat mounts to the coach framing (you need to drill two holes for mounting bolts). By switching solenoids and mounting it there is is supported by the frame rail itself and isolated from the engine vibration. While I was in there I also re-wired with 8 gauge wire and, soldered the connections wrapped heat tape around the wire bundle near the starter. I run headers on mine which come very close to the original wiring for the starter. Since making this switch I have not had any failures.

This "bulletin" add on was probably the biggest and most frequent source of failure on my 345. At best, the engine vibrations would rattle the solenoid internals and I would not be able to start from the key and would have to hot wire it. At worst it broke off the mount and grounded out on a bracket, killing the engine. This happened a few times but once while crossing the Tappanzee bridge (mid bridge). I lost all engine power (and consequently power steering and power brakes) but was able to coast down the bridge and pull off...but those New Yorkers did not apprieciate my 10 mph crawl down the bridge.

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