454 TBI, yes/no good/bad idea?

[bkahler]

Originally Posted by Keyair

The thing you circled is the connector I think. I have the Innovate too. That's about where mine is but on the driver's side.

I circled as much as was in the picture!

I wonder if it makes sense when initially setting up a TBI it might be better to go with the narrow band and once it's more or less running correctly then switch to the wide band for fine tuning?

Sometimes it's easier to start out with something "basic" and then start building in the complexity.

[bkahler]

Originally Posted by PeterH-Airstreamer

I am with you on the steep learning curve.
The wide band O2 sensor is part of the TBI system, since the ECU is calculating and correcting its fueling level based on the values from the O2 sensor. This is also referred to as a closed loop. In addition to that it has its own serial port connection to monitor and fine tune the sensor.
The simpler narrow band O2 sensor can accurately indicate an AF ratio of 14.7 that corresponds to an output voltage of appr .45 volts. Any voltage above or below that will cause the ECU to modify the pulse width of the injectors.
A wide band (in my case) can accurately indicate AF ratios from 10:1 to 20:1 The ECU can be programmed to maintain an AF ratio somewhere in that range, based on the type of engine and operating conditions.
And this is the point where I am deeply involved right now.
If you are interested this is what I can observe with the wide band O2 sensor:
11.5 -12 at idle which is too rich and I am trying to figure out why and what to do about it.
A perfect score of ~14.5 at 2800 RPM and upon deceleration leaning out to 18:1 back down to idle and 11.5-12 within seconds.
I think the wide band O2 sensor/system is the way to go, but it may take a little more work to fine tune
If anyone has more experience with the fine tuning of the O2 sensor input, I would greatly appreciate it. This is not system specific, its universal to TBI

The Affordable system I'm looking at is closed loop as well and includes an electronically controlled distributor that will adjust timing according to conditions.

I certainly can't answer your questions about why you're having varying values at idle and deceleration. Sorta sounds the ECM is not responding rapidly enough to changing conditions.

[PeterH-350LE]

Originally Posted by bkahler

The Affordable system I'm looking at is closed loop as well and includes an electronically controlled distributor that will adjust timing according to conditions.

I certainly can't answer your questions about why you're having varying values at idle and deceleration. Sorta sounds the ECM is not responding rapidly enough to changing conditions.

My system has the electronically controlled distributor as well. Kinda awesome to watch the values change when I am hooked up to the laptop.
The leaning out at deceleration is normal and desired and does show the preciseness of these systems.
I hope we all can learn together as we walk down this path.

[bkahler]

Originally Posted by PeterH-Airstreamer

My system has the electronically controlled distributor as well. Kinda awesome to watch the values change when I am hooked up to the laptop.
The leaning out at deceleration is normal and desired and does show the preciseness of these systems.

So do you have one of those steering wheel laptop mounts like Dean does?

I hope we all can learn together as we walk down this path.

In my case it will be more of a crawl

[bkahler]

Back to surge tanks.

Using a surge tank may just solve my issue with having front and rear fuel tanks. I had been thinking the solution to eliminating the external high pressure fuel pump would be to use an in-tank fuel pump. With two tanks that means I need two pumps and all of the associated hardware, wiring, etc. With my dual tank setup I will be using a switching valve that selects front or rear tank and handles the switching of the sending unit signals.

With a surge pump maybe I can get away with using an electric pump just down stream of the selector valve to feed the surge tank and then the high pressure pump after the surge tank per diagram on the link Peter provided.

I think the pieces of the puzzle are slowly starting to come together

[bkahler]

Here's what I'm thinking about as far as fuel feed system.


Fairly simple to implement. Just need to figure out what to use for the low pressure high volume pump.

[Keyair]

Looks good Brad.
The only suggestion I have would be about the return lines... check you switching valve has 2 returns... maybe it has 2, 1 or none at all.

[bkahler]

My selector valve has the feed and return lines incorporated. That was one of the criteria when I was looking for a replacement valve.

[PeterH-350LE]

Originally Posted by bkahler

Here's what I'm thinking about as far as fuel feed system.
Attachment 255225

Fairly simple to implement. Just need to figure out what to use for the low pressure high volume pump.

Looks right to me. The EFI pump would of course still have to be mounted at the lowest point of the surge tank or even below it, since those high pressure pumps are gravity fed push only. My 310 just has the regular 4-5 psi run of the mill fuel pump right by the fuel tank in front of a big fran type fuel filter. The EFI pump never runs the surge tank out of fuel. The next fuel filter (metal) is located just passed the EFI pump. Some people like to install another smaller micron filter before the surge tank, I just don't care for the inline glass ones (or plastic, like some people have laying on their intake manifold)
The PO also installed a switch to "prime" the surge tank (and another switch to prime the generator) I find the surge tank priming unnecessary, since all you need to do is turn the ignition on to run the rear fuel pump.
Another must carry item will have to be a spare cheapo electric fuel pump or 2

[PeterH-350LE]

Originally Posted by bkahler

So do you have one of those steering wheel laptop mounts like Dean does?

I have an old Laptop that just sits on the doghouse. Wished I could run it through the Jensen, but both the TBI and the O2 sensor have their own software.

Originally Posted by bkahler

In my case it will be more of a crawl

That works for me, just remember when you come to a fork in the road, take it...

[bkahler]

Originally Posted by PeterH-Airstreamer

Looks right to me. The EFI pump would of course still have to be mounted at the lowest point of the surge tank or even below it, since those high pressure pumps are gravity fed push only. My 310 just has the regular 4-5 psi run of the mill fuel pump right by the fuel tank in front of a big fran type fuel filter. The EFI pump never runs the surge tank out of fuel. The next fuel filter (metal) is located just passed the EFI pump. Some people like to install another smaller micron filter before the surge tank, I just don't care for the inline glass ones (or plastic, like some people have laying on their intake manifold)
The PO also installed a switch to "prime" the surge tank (and another switch to prime the generator) I find the surge tank priming unnecessary, since all you need to do is turn the ignition on to run the rear fuel pump.
Another must carry item will have to be a spare cheapo electric fuel pump or 2

Good info on the EFI pump mounting location. I talked to Affordable a little while ago about the use of a surge tank and he said by all means. He didn't think the overall size of the tank was overly critical. He mentioned 1/2 gallon to a gallon. I'll have to look thinks over for a mounting location and I'll make a decision from there.

I think I pretty much have my fuel feed system mapped out now so it's just a matter of getting the chassis cleaned and painted so I can start assembling things.

I agree, the ignition switch should be more than sufficient to fill the surge tank if it ever needs it. I'm not sure how the tank would run dry if the return line comes off the top of the tank and the suction feed to the high pressure pump is at the bottom.

[bkahler]

Originally Posted by PeterH-Airstreamer

I have an old Laptop that just sits on the doghouse. Wished I could run it through the Jensen, but both the TBI and the O2 sensor have their own software.

Is any of the software available for your smart phone as an App? If so there is an HDMI video input to the Jensen that will display what's on your smart phone. Check out page 56 of the Operation Manual for HDMI info.

Also the Jensen has RCA type video-in inputs called AV-1 and AV-2 so if you could possibly send the output of your laptop to a the Jensen via RCA video cables. Look at page 14 of Operation Manual and look at the installation instructions for the AV cables.

That works for me, just remember when you come to a fork in the road, take it...

Even if it's not mine?

[PeterH-350LE]

Originally Posted by bkahler

Is any of the software available for your smart phone as an App? If so there is an HDMI video input to the Jensen that will display what's on your smart phone. Check out page 56 of the Operation Manual for HDMI info.

Also the Jensen has RCA type video-in inputs called AV-1 and AV-2 so if you could possibly send the output of your laptop to a the Jensen via RCA video cables. Look at page 14 of Operation Manual and look at the installation instructions for the AV cables.



Even if it's not mine?

Thanks for the Jensen input, Brad. I will look into this.
In the meantime, I wrote to Innovative tech support about my idle AF ratio issue. I suspect a problem with the 02 sensor. Unfortunately it was mounted at 3 o'clock, any position between 3 and 9 is prohibited due to moisture entering the sensor. It needs to be mounted between 10 and 2, just like Steve did his. If that is the case, I will be looking at a banks system sooner that I thought .
I was trying to run it in open loop, taking the O2 sensor out completely, but it got too late to figure it out.
Here is the open Loop info from the manual:
1.21 Open Loop
Open loop defines the engine operation where the fueling level
is calculated by the ECU with only the input signals from the
throttle position sensor (TPS), from the coolant and/or air charge temperature, and from the manifold absolute pressure (MAP).
Feedback from the oxygen sensor is not used in calculating fueling amount

[bkahler]

Peter, can you put a new bung for an o2 sensor in the collector (if you have headers) or somewhere down stream in the exhaust pipe and use a heated sensor? I would think a good exhaust shop could do that relatively easily.

[PeterH-350LE]

Originally Posted by bkahler

Peter, can you put a new bung for an o2 sensor in the collector (if you have headers) or somewhere down stream in the exhaust pipe and use a heated sensor? I would think a good exhaust shop could do that relatively easily.

I have the stock manifolds, with the drivers side leaking. So, headers are on my list along with a new exhaust system.
I believe that all wide band O2 sensors are the heated type.
Remember the switches (trinary) you recommended for the new cooling fans? While I was going through all the settings, I found fan settings, controlled by coolant temp, I.e fan on at 191, fan off at 182.
Same with the closed loop (O2 sensor input for fuel map) and open loop (all other sensors input for fuel map). I can set it to run in open loop in idle and then I.e. at 1050 rpm switch to closed loop.
You as a programmer will have a blast working with all the variables and programming the ECU.

[bkahler]

Originally Posted by PeterH-Airstreamer

You as a programmer will have a blast working with all the variables and programming the ECU.

Infinite configurability sometimes can be a huge curse, BUT I do like to tinker

[bkahler]

I recently ran across this website that provides tools and software to program the GM 16168625 ECM used in my system.

Don't know anything about them but this could be an interesting alternative once the system is installed.

[choctawmel]

Originally Posted by bkahler

Your experience with the o2 sensor matches with what I've been reading elsewhere. That works in my favor as I have ceramic coated Hedman headers. Having a heated o2 sensor in the collector would be my preference.



Do you remember if your inline electric pump installation was below tank level or somewhere above the bottom of the tank? I've been reading about inline pump issues and one point seems to be the inline pump has to be at or near the level of the bottom of the tank. Another comment was to use the stock mechanical pump to act as a "scavenger" pump for the inline pump. Supposedly with this arrangement the inline pump can be mounted anywhere down stream of the mechanical pump. I'm still trying to find out more
information about that arrangement.

The sending unit I bought for my fuel tank is from an in-tank fuel system so if I can modify the sending unit to fit my tank that might be the solution.



I was wondering which order you had done your installation.



So whose TBI system did you install the $1300 CPU in?

Sorry I'm taking so long. Just had internet for the last couple days again w/o finding free wifi.

I first mounted the IP along the frame with the Holley pump still in front of the tank as it came from AS. After the 2nd IP failure I realize the Holley pump was not working all the time caused by failing splices in the wire to the Holley pump. I then moved the inline IP back to were the Holley had been and put the spine on fuel filter where the pump was. Then, after everyone told me I needed the IP in the tank, I put the Fast kit into the tank.

The new cpu plugged right into the wiring harness. With it, I tuned it with my laptop.

[choctawmel]

Originally Posted by bkahler

Peter, everything I've read up to this point also mentioned removing the mechanical pump completely. I was reviewing the installation manual for the AFI TBI system and came across this paragraph:

"Recent fuel pump installations have kept the vehicle’s mechanical fuel pump intact and used it as scavenger pump for the electric fuel pump. With this type of installation the electric fuel pump can be mounted in any location that you would choose, as a constant fuel flow is available for the electric pump. Ensure that the fuel filter is still installed between the mechanical and the electric pump if you choose this type of fuel pump installation."

I was somewhat surprised when I read it and have been searching for more info on the subject but haven't come up with much.



I do like the idea of eliminating the mechanical pump and was caught off guard by the statement about using it as a scavenger pump. I plan on asking AFI about it.

Can you post a picture of your surge tank? I've not ran across references anywhere to the use of a surge tank with TBI.

Brad

Loose the mechanical pump. More than likely you'd loose pressure back to the tank as the mechanical only puts 5psi to the carb.

I welded a nut to the cover plate for the anti-knock senser.

I ran a 3/8" stainless steel return line too.

[PeterH-350LE]

Originally Posted by bkahler

Infinite configurability sometimes can be a huge curse, BUT I do like to tinker

If I would start from scratch, i would make sure to get a self-tuning EFI system. Its already a huge job to input the correct data for your personal application, any help from a self-tuning ECU would be a great blessing.
My system is not self-tuning and I am experiencing the above mentioned curse.
Among many things there is a Volt/AF table, meaning the voltage send by the wide band O2 sensor corresponds to a AF ratio, with 0 volt=10 AF and 5 v=18 AF
My table was wrong. It was the stock Holley table with a Innovate O2 sensor. After entering the correct table, I now get the correct AF of 14.7
But I need to do more fine tuning, but right now my head is spinning