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bkahler · 01-09-2016, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by choctawmel

Loose the mechanical pump. More than likely you'd loose pressure back to the tank as the mechanical only puts 5psi to the carb.

I welded a nut to the cover plate for the anti-knock senser.

I ran a 3/8" stainless steel return line too.

Yep, the mechanical pump is going away. I'm pretty sure I'll be using a Surge tank with a low pressure pump feeding the surge tank and the high pressure pump sucking from the surge tank to the TBI.

Talking with Affordable they indicated the return line is 5/16" so I stick with that size.

Thanks!

bkahler · 01-09-2016, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeterH-Airstreamer

If I would start from scratch, i would make sure to get a self-tuning EFI system. Its already a huge job to input the correct data for your personal application, any help from a self-tuning ECU would be a great blessing.
My system is not self-tuning and I am experiencing the above mentioned curse.

Among many things there is a Volt/AF table, meaning the voltage send by the wide band O2 sensor corresponds to a AF ratio, with 0 volt=10 AF and 5 v=18 AF
My table was wrong. It was the stock Holley table with a Innovate O2 sensor. After entering the correct table, I now get the correct AF of 14.7

I could be wrong but several weeks ago while talking to the guy at Affordable I believe he stated the system was self-tuning. I'm going to give them a call Monday and get some clarification about that.

Quote:

But I need to do more fine tuning, but right now my head is spinning

PeterH-350LE · 01-09-2016, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkahler

I could be wrong but several weeks ago while talking to the guy at Affordable I believe he stated the system was self-tuning. I'm going to give them a call Monday and get some clarification about that.

"Whilst" you talk to them, could you find out what brand of wide band O2 Sensor they recommend.
I have Innovate Bosch LC1 version, which is now absolute and was replaced by LC2 .

bkahler · 01-09-2016, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeterH-Airstreamer

"Whilst" you talk to them, could you find out what brand of wide band O2 Sensor they recommend.
I have Innovate Bosch LC1 version, which is now absolute and was replaced by LC2 .

Peter, I'll see what they have to say.

Keyair · 01-11-2016, 01:48 PM

A few thoughts to add...

My TBI conversion will be done BECAUSE my rig will most likely not pass smog now, nor in the future without ongoing cost and effort that will exceed swapping to TBI now. California allows an "Engine Swap", as long as it is from a later vehicle that has better/lower emissions and standards. As I have all the ownership paperwork, I am told they will accept this, but I still have some outstanding questions and concerns.

My donor blew away the last smog test I did with it.
It had 5 year old plugs and wires, and a 50k old Magnaflow aftermarket cat.

My plan is to use all of the actual parts that were on it.

Here is the underhood emissions sticker I plan to use as reference.
Unfortunately I was unable to "Peel it off".

Note the vacuum hose and diagram, as well as the statement on the lower LH side that states this is a "Heavy Duty California Emissions 1987 Vehicle".
I hope that will do it when the Smog Referee does his inspection.

Looking at the emission hose diagram, I note that the charcoal canister has a pipe that goes to the fuel tank. I have no vapor connections on my sender... so I am hoping a T into the fuel filler breather will be acceptable. I know that they test the tank for pressure retension as well as the cap. I know my tank is currently airstight, juding by the air pressure rush when I remove the locking cap... which came from teh Suburban also!

bkahler · 01-11-2016, 03:01 PM

Steve, are you actually going to change the motor or just the TBI and emissions components?

I would think you should be able to tap into the tank anywhere as long as the pressure is retained.

I'm glad I don't have to deal with all that emissions BS!

Keyair · 01-11-2016, 03:32 PM

"Officially" I will be changing the engine from the Suburban, into the Airstream....

Both were/are 4 bolt, peanut port 454's.
The engine that is currently in the Airstream is a 7,000 mile old Jasper Replacement. The Suburban has been gone 8/9 months, so it should have been stripped and crushed by now.... so there is no way to tie engine numbers to one or the other... if you follow my thinking.

This should fly.
I agree with you on the vapor line, but I just am trying to get everything clear in my mind. I think I will place the Vapor Canister on the drivers side somewhere, as it was there on the Suburban, low, outboard of the radiator. The "vapor line" will be probably be a steel line for 95% of the length, routed along the drivers side chassis rail, with just flex lines to connect.
I like the idea of the surge tank, as it solves my concern about the HP pump placement, and wire length, and simplifies my install. I can leave my rear LP electric pump and wiring untouched. I doubt it will impact the Emissions or be checked. Where I will mount it will dictated by the stock TBI SS flex pipes, which come up from the pass side rail.

bkahler · 01-11-2016, 04:20 PM

In lieu of the hard pipe for the canister you might consider the hard plastic tubing that is typically used. It's strong, seems to last for ever and should be more forgiving during installation.

Just a thought...

bkahler · 01-15-2016, 05:06 PM

Here's an update as to what's happening on the TBI front.

I've made the decision to not use Affordable Fuel Injection and am instead will be doing it piece meal. Yep, that's a totally different direction than I had been planing

But after much discussion with a couple of people I think I have a path forward that will work for me. I will be working with someone in Washington State who has done 454/4L80e conversions before. He's been guiding me through the list of parts I need for my particular application and will be doing the tuning once I get the engine running.

Below is a list of components for a TBI conversion based on a 1994 GM TBI system that I will building.

Throttle Body with Injectors (FI9403)
ECM - 16197427 (with correct memcal for 7.4L & 4L80e)
Harness - customized for my application (i.e. doghouse installation)
Throttle body adapter plate
External high pressure fuel pump
Surge tank
External low pressure high volume fuel pump
Distributor - ECM controlled
Map sensor (and bracket)
Coolant sensor
Coil (and bracket)
O2 sensor - narrow band
O2 sensor - wide band
Knock sensor (if my block supports a knock sensor)
VSSB - (calibrated to match my diff ratio and tire circumference)

So far I have the ECM and VSSB. Later this month I'll start ordering the other parts. The 4L80e comes back from the shop next Saturday so I need to make sure I can pay for it before buying more parts

Brad

Keyair · 01-15-2016, 05:20 PM

Sweet.
I will be a bit behind you...

bkahler · 01-15-2016, 05:42 PM

Steve, need a measurement if you can get it.

On the 454 block at the bottom of the valley where the intake manifold sits I need a measurement from that point to the plane where the carburetor bolts to the intake.

With the Edelbrock Performer intake on mine that number is approximately 5-1/2".

I'm trying to verify top of air cleaner to doghouse cover.

Thanks!

bkahler · 01-15-2016, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkahler

Peter, I'll see what they have to say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeterH-Airstreamer

"Whilst" you talk to them, could you find out what brand of wide band O2 Sensor they recommend.
I have Innovate Bosch LC1 version, which is now absolute and was replaced by LC2 .

Peter, never got that information from them. I'll ask the guy that's helping me to see if he has an opinion on the subject.

I know he has recommended this one from AEM for my system.

PeterH-350LE · 01-15-2016, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkahler

Here's an update as to what's happening on the TBI front.

I've made the decision to not use Affordable Fuel Injection and am instead will be doing it piece meal. Yep, that's a totally different direction than I had been planing

But after much discussion with a couple of people I think I have a path forward that will work for me. I will be working with someone in Washington State who has done 454/4L80e conversions before. He's been guiding me through the list of parts I need for my particular application and will be doing the tuning once I get the engine running.

Below is a list of components for a TBI conversion based on a 1994 GM TBI system that I will building.

Throttle Body with Injectors (FI9403)
ECM - 16197427 (with correct memcal for 7.4L & 4L80e)
Harness - customized for my application (i.e. doghouse installation)
Throttle body adapter plate
External high pressure fuel pump
Surge tank
External low pressure high volume fuel pump
Distributor - ECM controlled
Map sensor (and bracket)
Coolant sensor
Coil (and bracket)
O2 sensor - narrow band
O2 sensor - wide band
Knock sensor (if my block supports a knock sensor)
VSSB - (calibrated to match my diff ratio and tire circumference)

So far I have the ECM and VSSB. Later this month I'll start ordering the other parts. The 4L80e comes back from the shop next Saturday so I need to make sure I can pay for it before buying more parts

Brad

Brad, here is a detailed list of the items used in the Holley Commander TBI.
They even included pictures for very item on the following page, in case you may need something specific. Items 1,2 and 3 are the Throttle Body, the ECU and the software
Questions:
why are you planning on running both a narrow band and wide band O2 sensor?
Why are you using an external coil ?

bkahler · 01-15-2016, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeterH-Airstreamer

Brad, here is a detailed list of the items used in the Holley Commander TBI.
They even included pictures for very item on the following page, in case you may need something specific. Items 1,2 and 3 are the Throttle Body, the ECU and the software

Is your distributor is ECM controlled?

Quote:

Questions:
why are you planning on running both a narrow band and wide band O2 sensor?

Actually I'm still a little confused by the O2 sensor arrangement and am waiting for some clarification. When I find out I'll post the info.

Quote:

Why are you using an external coil ?

The distributor is ECM controlled to adjust timing and apparently uses an external coil.

PeterH-350LE · 01-15-2016, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkahler

Is your distributor is ECM controlled?.

Yes, totally. When I get a chance i will post a picture and more details about the distributor. It does have the coil on top like the stock distributor. It was not part of the Holley package, the PO upgraded to this distributor after the fact.

choctawmel · 01-16-2016, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeterH-Airstreamer

Yes, totally. When I get a chance i will post a picture and more details about the distributor. It does have the coil on top like the stock distributor. It was not part of the Holley package, the PO upgraded to this distributor after the fact.

That's the setup I used. Got the coil/bracket off and 350.

As for the o2's? I have the same question..... Why 2?

Who's burning your POM? That was the biggest problem I had, getting the POM right. Why I spent $1300 for the programmable CPU.

mel

Keyair · 01-16-2016, 07:22 PM

Interesting...
My '87 has the coil separate.

bkahler · 01-16-2016, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by choctawmel

That's the setup I used. Got the coil/bracket off and 350.

As for the o2's? I have the same question..... Why 2?

Next time I talk to him I'll ask about the configuration of the sensors. It's entirely possible I misunderstood his response to my initial question.

Quote:

Who's burning your POM? That was the biggest problem I had, getting the POM right. Why I spent $1300 for the programmable CPU.

mel

A guy in Washington State is doing the programming. I'm going to buy a burner so he just has to send me the updates via email. Just yesterday I was able to buy an NOS prom that is configured for a 1994 P-30 454 with 4L80e. That should get all of the parameters fairly close which I would think will help a lot.

Since I'm going to be running the engine on the test stand prior to putting it in the chassis he's going to send me a prom that has a bunch of stuff disabled since I won't have it available on the test stand, like the transmission signals, etc.