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Old 01-05-2016, 06:23 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by bkahler View Post
Thanks for the picture. I get the general idea of where it's located.

So what's the controller that I've circled in red?
Attachment 255177
thats the wideband O2 sensor
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/
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Old 01-05-2016, 07:55 PM   #58
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Wow, I wasn't expecting it to be an o2 sensor! Just shows you how much I know about these new fangled devices

Is this a standalone gauge or is it used as part of your TBI system?
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Old 01-05-2016, 10:19 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkahler View Post
Wow, I wasn't expecting it to be an o2 sensor! Just shows you how much I know about these new fangled devices

Is this a standalone gauge or is it used as part of your TBI system?
I am with you on the steep learning curve.
The wide band O2 sensor is part of the TBI system, since the ECU is calculating and correcting its fueling level based on the values from the O2 sensor. This is also referred to as a closed loop. In addition to that it has its own serial port connection to monitor and fine tune the sensor.
The simpler narrow band O2 sensor can accurately indicate an AF ratio of 14.7 that corresponds to an output voltage of appr .45 volts. Any voltage above or below that will cause the ECU to modify the pulse width of the injectors.
A wide band (in my case) can accurately indicate AF ratios from 10:1 to 20:1 The ECU can be programmed to maintain an AF ratio somewhere in that range, based on the type of engine and operating conditions.
And this is the point where I am deeply involved right now.
If you are interested this is what I can observe with the wide band O2 sensor:
11.5 -12 at idle which is too rich and I am trying to figure out why and what to do about it.
A perfect score of ~14.5 at 2800 RPM and upon deceleration leaning out to 18:1 back down to idle and 11.5-12 within seconds.
I think the wide band O2 sensor/system is the way to go, but it may take a little more work to fine tune
If anyone has more experience with the fine tuning of the O2 sensor input, I would greatly appreciate it. This is not system specific, its universal to TBI
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Old 01-05-2016, 10:59 PM   #60
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The thing you circled is the connector I think. I have the Innovate too. That's about where mine is but on the driver's side.
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Old 01-06-2016, 06:20 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Keyair View Post
The thing you circled is the connector I think. I have the Innovate too. That's about where mine is but on the driver's side.
I circled as much as was in the picture!

I wonder if it makes sense when initially setting up a TBI it might be better to go with the narrow band and once it's more or less running correctly then switch to the wide band for fine tuning?

Sometimes it's easier to start out with something "basic" and then start building in the complexity.
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Old 01-06-2016, 06:23 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterH-Airstreamer View Post
I am with you on the steep learning curve.
The wide band O2 sensor is part of the TBI system, since the ECU is calculating and correcting its fueling level based on the values from the O2 sensor. This is also referred to as a closed loop. In addition to that it has its own serial port connection to monitor and fine tune the sensor.
The simpler narrow band O2 sensor can accurately indicate an AF ratio of 14.7 that corresponds to an output voltage of appr .45 volts. Any voltage above or below that will cause the ECU to modify the pulse width of the injectors.
A wide band (in my case) can accurately indicate AF ratios from 10:1 to 20:1 The ECU can be programmed to maintain an AF ratio somewhere in that range, based on the type of engine and operating conditions.
And this is the point where I am deeply involved right now.
If you are interested this is what I can observe with the wide band O2 sensor:
11.5 -12 at idle which is too rich and I am trying to figure out why and what to do about it.
A perfect score of ~14.5 at 2800 RPM and upon deceleration leaning out to 18:1 back down to idle and 11.5-12 within seconds.
I think the wide band O2 sensor/system is the way to go, but it may take a little more work to fine tune
If anyone has more experience with the fine tuning of the O2 sensor input, I would greatly appreciate it. This is not system specific, its universal to TBI
The Affordable system I'm looking at is closed loop as well and includes an electronically controlled distributor that will adjust timing according to conditions.

I certainly can't answer your questions about why you're having varying values at idle and deceleration. Sorta sounds the ECM is not responding rapidly enough to changing conditions.
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Old 01-06-2016, 06:35 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkahler View Post
The Affordable system I'm looking at is closed loop as well and includes an electronically controlled distributor that will adjust timing according to conditions.

I certainly can't answer your questions about why you're having varying values at idle and deceleration. Sorta sounds the ECM is not responding rapidly enough to changing conditions.
My system has the electronically controlled distributor as well. Kinda awesome to watch the values change when I am hooked up to the laptop.
The leaning out at deceleration is normal and desired and does show the preciseness of these systems.
I hope we all can learn together as we walk down this path.
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Old 01-06-2016, 07:08 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterH-Airstreamer View Post
My system has the electronically controlled distributor as well. Kinda awesome to watch the values change when I am hooked up to the laptop.
The leaning out at deceleration is normal and desired and does show the preciseness of these systems.
So do you have one of those steering wheel laptop mounts like Dean does?

Quote:
I hope we all can learn together as we walk down this path.
In my case it will be more of a crawl
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Old 01-06-2016, 07:23 AM   #65
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Back to surge tanks.

Using a surge tank may just solve my issue with having front and rear fuel tanks. I had been thinking the solution to eliminating the external high pressure fuel pump would be to use an in-tank fuel pump. With two tanks that means I need two pumps and all of the associated hardware, wiring, etc. With my dual tank setup I will be using a switching valve that selects front or rear tank and handles the switching of the sending unit signals.

With a surge pump maybe I can get away with using an electric pump just down stream of the selector valve to feed the surge tank and then the high pressure pump after the surge tank per diagram on the link Peter provided.

I think the pieces of the puzzle are slowly starting to come together
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Old 01-06-2016, 12:01 PM   #66
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Here's what I'm thinking about as far as fuel feed system.
Click image for larger version

Name:	duel-tanks-with-surge-tank (2).jpg
Views:	59
Size:	156.7 KB
ID:	255225

Fairly simple to implement. Just need to figure out what to use for the low pressure high volume pump.
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Old 01-06-2016, 01:46 PM   #67
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Looks good Brad.
The only suggestion I have would be about the return lines... check you switching valve has 2 returns... maybe it has 2, 1 or none at all.
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Old 01-06-2016, 03:37 PM   #68
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My selector valve has the feed and return lines incorporated. That was one of the criteria when I was looking for a replacement valve.
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Old 01-06-2016, 04:41 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkahler View Post
Here's what I'm thinking about as far as fuel feed system.
Attachment 255225

Fairly simple to implement. Just need to figure out what to use for the low pressure high volume pump.
Looks right to me. The EFI pump would of course still have to be mounted at the lowest point of the surge tank or even below it, since those high pressure pumps are gravity fed push only. My 310 just has the regular 4-5 psi run of the mill fuel pump right by the fuel tank in front of a big fran type fuel filter. The EFI pump never runs the surge tank out of fuel. The next fuel filter (metal) is located just passed the EFI pump. Some people like to install another smaller micron filter before the surge tank, I just don't care for the inline glass ones (or plastic, like some people have laying on their intake manifold)
The PO also installed a switch to "prime" the surge tank (and another switch to prime the generator) I find the surge tank priming unnecessary, since all you need to do is turn the ignition on to run the rear fuel pump.
Another must carry item will have to be a spare cheapo electric fuel pump or 2
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Old 01-06-2016, 05:11 PM   #70
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So do you have one of those steering wheel laptop mounts like Dean does?
I have an old Laptop that just sits on the doghouse. Wished I could run it through the Jensen, but both the TBI and the O2 sensor have their own software.



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In my case it will be more of a crawl
That works for me, just remember when you come to a fork in the road, take it...
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