'63 Safari - It 'Bee' Traded (#8671)

[VIKING]

I'm looking at the same question right now with my safari. I only have about ten to twenty square feet of bad flooring so I know I could repair it easily. The hard part is I know I will need to pull the cabinets and appliances to do the repair, so at that point I have to weigh weather it's worth the time to pull the rest up. I think it's probably giong to be a whole new floor for me. I expect that the old stuff under the floor is needing attention after 44 years and I really want to know that there is a good, solid frame under all of the rest of my work when I'm done. I probably won't pull the shell off though, unless I find a very good reason to do so. I can't imagine putting new cabinets, appliances, floor finishes etc. on top of a questionable foundation, and I already know that I don't want to do this project twice on the same trailer. Life is too short. I will be using marine grade plywood, and wrapping the perimeter 6 to 8 inches with thin aluminum sheet before slipping it under the "c" channel bullet-proof 50 year floor!
Good luck with your project,
Rich

[greywolf]

Hey Viking, If you can do the repairs without needing to remove the shell, that'd be the way to go. Besides needing an enclosed shop with a very level floor, it is very difficult getting the shell back onto the frame and have everything level and matched up correctly.

[goransons]

Good news (I think). I spent a little time this evening getting what little garage space I have back (actually put tools back where they go) so I could prep some parts to ship out and discovered the furnace (which is removed at this point) is a Suburban NT30 SP that looks like its in pretty good shape, just ever-so-slight surface rust on the outside case where it was sitting on wet plywood. Connections inside as far as burners look good, as does the circuit board area, etc. Know I will have to find and retrofit an original outside cover, but this should be a good bonus in the restoration costs area. Looks to be fairly new, at least less than 10 years. Not sure how long the SP model has been available, but maybe someone knows. Don't remember the serial number off hand but it is 6 digits, 186xxx I think.

[goransons]

While we pay a few bills and wait to get the hinge back I thought I'd get some power in the trailer so we have working lights and outlets. Safety first I've been going through checking all connections and undoing some in the field or behind the barn repairs.

Several weird additions due to the univolt were made. There is some very minimal rust on box for the breaker, only where things had been scuffed through the paint. I need to find out if that breaker box still has breakers available or not, wouldn't mind replacing those, repainting the box and reinstalling it. If breakers are no longer available then we'll replace the box I guess.

The good news: all 12v and 110 wire I have found in the trailer (other than these few modifications I am removing) have been good, still pliable plastic insulated copper wire. I will able to access all outlets when bottom panels are off for floor replacement, so either new romex with the 3rd wire ground will be installed, or a 3rd (insulated) wire will be pulled to safely add 3 prong outlets that are grounded independantly of the shell.

This trailer has the completely seperate 12v and 110 circuits, with each fan having a "city power - off - battery" switch and a transformer located nearby to step down city to 12v DC. Every light fixture (original ones) have a 12v and a 110 light bulb, generally a small 12v switch on the side of the fixture and a wall mounted 110 switch nearby.

At some point a univolt (which currently works I might ad) was placed under the street side goucho and back fed into the 12v system across the trailer from the original battery location under the kitchen sink area.

I kind of like the novelty of the 110 or 12v switch idea, and with only needing 2 small 12v dc transformers to keep the system I think probably will, however I have a couple questions.

1. Does anyone have a source for these transformers or info off of any existing fan motors that would give me an idea of amps/watts I need in a transformer to do the job (both fan locations are missing the fan motors themselves). The trailer has 2 transformers, 1 at the bathroom area roof vent, one in the kitchen area, and possibly a 3rd around the water pump area, but I haven't made it that far foward in the trailer.

2. How was the 12v system originally fused? At the location of the original battery (which also had wires for the thermostat, furnace fan and 110 power there is no evidence of a fuse panel of any kind. There appears to be a small circuit breaker on the wall (covered with lots of paint), but was this trailer really a 1 breaker 12v system?

3. I'm also trying to figure out the wiring for the kitchen fan switch (the city-off-battery one) since it has been disconnected at some point. I assume the center terminal of an on-off-on switch should be the fan motor, and the terminal behind city would be the 12v dc coming from the 110 to 12v transformer and the terminal behind the battery would be a 12v dc power source from the battery correct?

4. Charging the battery:

With these transformers, I really don't necessarily need the univolt (which would likely be upgraded to an intelipower model) but do want something to keep the 12v system charged, and run a new circuit for the 3 way refrigerator we'll install.

5. Grounding:

the 12 volt system seems to all ground every fixture to the body, which means there must be a master ground terminal location (I'd hope) but I see no obvious location for this, does anyone have any suggestions?

6. Prewiring

Would this trailer have been prewired for roof top air? I see trailers of this era with vintage roof top units, and though we want 8671 to be pretty much exactly as it was in 63/64 for the caravan, we will need air conditioning in this unit because it isn't uncommon in eastern Washington for it to get well over 100 degrees in the summer. If yes would that wire be in the wall behind that breaker box or would it be expected to already be pulled through the skin.

[Lumatic]

Originally Posted by goransons

6. Prewiring

Would this trailer have been prewired for roof top air? I see trailers of this era with vintage roof top units, and though we want 8671 to be pretty much exactly as it was in 63/64 for the caravan

I don't know if all ASs of this era were prewired, but, the Ross's 62 Ambassador 6472 which was on this caravan has a Dometic AC which can be seen in photos of the caravan. In Thank you Marco Polo the book states some of trailers had AC, but they had a separate parking area for them due to generator noise.

[3Ms75Argosy]

Scott... I forgot the camera, but yes, I have the correct "ohio" lights in the rear.
Marc

[goransons]

Awesome Marc, that's definately good news. Keep me in the loop on your progess and what I'll owe you for shipping!

[goransons]

modifications reversed, new power cord coming in, after a few PM's and some time with a volt meter I sorted it all out. 12v works too (though I'm going to find new transformers to replace the old ones.

Helps us say "Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays"

[Frank's Trailer Works]

Just curious... is fixing the wiring a little premature for a trailer needing the floor replaced and frame work done? I guess any work is good, but you might be ripping a lot of it out when you get in there for real. Not trying to pee on your campfire, sorry.

[goransons]

lol well in a way yes, but also no. Since we plan on returning it to as original as possible searching out how each thing works, and what should be there and what shouldn't before we're messing with finished surfaces is important, plus in the limited space we have to work, having available outlets and lights to work under are helpful since most of my time to work on the trailer is in the evenings.

All existing wire I've found looks good, so we're not too inclined to rip it all out. Especially with mechanical systems, I find its best to know exactly what you're working with before you take it apart, that way you know what "back together" is supposed to be. Never having worked on a pre-univolt type system, if I had ripped out what was here without figuring it out, I'd have been in trouble!

Soon we will be removing some lower skins in the rear to remove flooring at which time we'll upgrade what needs to be done and add additional circuits as needed. Does that mean disconnecting a few wires while work is done, YEP! but we'll know what we're doing (or more so) when it goes back together.

But in spirit yes our plans aren't to do work we have to throw out later and your point is well taken

[ROBERT CROSS]

Scott,
Take a LOT of pictures during the inspection and dis-assembly. Been a very big help in some of the cars I've done for people over the years.

We love the '63, it was our "first", so we be following this thread closely.

Good Luck

Bob.

[goransons]

I went by the machine shop yesterday and looked at a great hinge, but we found the computer operator had made an error with the placement of one of the loops (made it reverse). SOOO they went ahead and remade it (at their expense) and I picked that up a couple hours ago.

Below are photos, old and new next to each other (the new one is a little thicker material). All was computer cut and drilled with a waterjet unit to exact measurements of the original.

I am pleased with the result, from the photos you can see I have it temporarily reinstalled in the original holes however will hold off briefly until I have new weatherstrip on the door and new strikers on it so if I need to make any adjustments I can do so. Then I'll finish installing rivets with plenty of Tempro 636.

The cost, it was almost double his first estimate (not because he remade it). They charge $90 an hour (wouldn't that be nice!!) for Water Jet cutting and that includes programming time. The more labor intensive part as Inland Andy pointed out is there is no fast way for them to bend those loops. The half of the hinge shown was about $90 and that was discounted. Granted future top hinges would be just the cut time and bend time, not programing.

If you are interested in the shop that did it and contact info, feel free to PM and I'll send it to you. All he asks is that he have the samples to make exact copies of. As Joe mentioned don't forget top and bottom are not the same!

On a side note, has a deadbolt of sorts, which has an inside and outside knob. After a little work and silicone spray knob works perfectly from the inside, very smooth however outside knob spins and spins. If you remove it, it has some type of slip joint (or perhaps was supposed to be spring loaded) on the flat pin that slides through the striker. At first I was thinking this was a travel lock, and maybe it is and the outside isn't supposed to spin and needs to be repaired. Any info appreciated.

[Frank's Trailer Works]

The copy is so exact that they even have the center hole misaligned just like the original. Now that is exact.

A few questions... is it stainless? Are you going to add a backer plate on the inside skin? Are you planning to use stainless rivets?

[goransons]

the rivet holes aligned perfectly, and I mean perfectly, no adjustments needed (the wonders of computers and a good machinist). No evidence of distortion of the wall from the hinge or door use, so probably am not going to add a backer plate. I hadn't thought about using stainless rivets, the original were very soft aluminum ones. With 9 rivets per hinge there is certainly a lot of surface area for holding power.

I'll post later this striker plate someone built. It is a near copy of the plastic one but made out of 1/4 thick steel plate. Yes its coming out, but was obvious hinge problems had been around for awhile. I'm guessing that hinge was only holding on by one loop for a long time and was sagging.

[goransons]

I realized I never got around to posting photos of the rear of the trailer inside. Rob's worker removed the bathroom, for the most part with little to no damage (except for some trim where the fiberglass tub meets the wall and damage to the fiberglass black tank that can be repaired).

I did start removing panels the other day to start on the back 4 feet. I don't expect this to go fast, but rather get it exposed, as I get time clean up the frame, replace any cancer on the frame, and get the floor back in, probably well after the holidays by that point.

Unless I discover more issues than a mirror and light have seen, I anticipate doing a full replacement of the back 8 feet,

back 4' are bad
the next 4 are only bad on the street side where a deep cycle battery was installed directly on the plywood floor, no pan, no vent or anything. Also a PO reworked the refrigerator vent to use the bottom access door (louvered) and the original floor air intake which was right behind the tire (water come on in!!!) had been skinned over. That means I can eliminate the big hole in teh floor for the refrigerator, which will stiffen the floor significantly in that area since the edge of the plywood was just out there flappin in the wind. Then I anticipate a small replacement under the kitchen where the original battery was located.

First photo shows the rot around the black tank, and if you look carefully evidence on how that got going can be seen from last night's rain coming in over the bumper cover in the photo, so that will have to be addressed.

Second photo shows the leak that was right under the vanity mounted shower faucet which appears to have leaked a long time

3rd photo is zoomed back to show under tub, which has water leaking from two places, on of those very notable original 63 reflectors, and the not so well done patch up on the second roof segment. Insulation looked good, not smelly at all (a little dusty) no nests, no "presents" from any inhabitants so far, but sure I'll find some of that when the floor comes out and I get a look in that belly pan.

4th is with the flash on, gives a better view of colors.

[3Ms75Argosy]

Hey Scott, what's the serial number of your trailer. Mine ends with 134.... may they be sisters?
Marc

[goransons]

130 here

[3Ms75Argosy]

Wow, only 4 apart... that's pretty amazing! I wonder if mine went anywhere? Somehow, I doubt it... the front skins are pretty untouched... (my Argosy has more sand pits), and no paint telling me places it's been... except for the wbcci numbers...

Fyi, I bought new bulbs for the rear lights... they work like a charm.
Marc

[66Overlander]

Originally Posted by 3Ms75Argosy

Hey Scott, what's the serial number of your trailer. Mine ends with 134.... may they be sisters?
Marc

Originally Posted by goransons

130 here

According to information published in a past VAC Vintage Advantage Newsletter you both have "early" trailers . . .

Marc, you have the 33rd 1963 24' Tradewind built in Ohio (out of 208 built, starting with "102").

Scott, you have the 30th 1963 22' Safari built in Ohio (out of 211 built, starting with "101").

These two trailers would almost assuredly have originally had the same tail lamps and could have possibly been built on the same day depending upon the way orders came in for 22' vs. 24' trailers.

[3Ms75Argosy]

Joe, that's fastinating! After I posted, I figured out that "duh.. Scott's got a Safari, and I a TW... two different serial number runs?"... but that doesn't appear to be the case.

Yes, the tail lights are the same (or should be!!), and they will find a home next year on the Safari.

So is that # 30 and 34 for the year 63, correct? They were pretty close on the assembly line then.
Love this AS history stuff!
Marc