The 23D thread

[Troutboy]

Oh and yes, the idea of the QX came firm you, lol. I knew it towed the 25 nice and you really liked it.

[PKI]

Originally Posted by GMFL

I don't know how the BMW/Touareg guys do it with payload?

Very well, thank you. It's a traveling thing as opposed to moving the house and garage to a vacation location thing. Different objectives = different solutions.

Hope to meet you down the road. Pat

[ajpittman]

Hello fellow 23D owners! New to the Airstream as of April 2017. Purchased a '17 FC 23D after having a deposit on a basecamp but got cold feet so we decided not to wait until retirement to get the one we really wanted. So here we are! Maiden voyage in April down to Disney (we are just outside Boston) and had a blast. A few more long weekend trips since. Appreciate this thread and all the knowledge shared by others. Not too many modifications since purchase but have: added hooks in bedroom, a magnetic door catch for bath door to stay open when using rear area with curtain pulled closed, added the gel filters others have described to tone down the bright LEDs, and finally roof mounted solar panels. Only real issue we have encountered is with fridge not getting cool (freezer is fine) We just identified the fan in compartment behind fridge is not working and addressing with dealer now (boy does it get hot behind there!). First boondocking trip coming up so will be curious how it works on LP only. Look forward to reading and contributing where I can!

[EarStreaming]

Originally Posted by ajpittman

Hello fellow 23D owners! New to the Airstream as of April 2017. Purchased a '17 FC 23D after having a deposit on a basecamp but got cold feet so we decided not to wait until retirement to get the one we really wanted. So here we are! Maiden voyage in April down to Disney (we are just outside Boston) and had a blast. A few more long weekend trips since. Appreciate this thread and all the knowledge shared by others. Not too many modifications since purchase but have: added hooks in bedroom, a magnetic door catch for bath door to stay open when using rear area with curtain pulled closed, added the gel filters others have described to tone down the bright LEDs, and finally roof mounted solar panels. Only real issue we have encountered is with fridge not getting cool (freezer is fine) We just identified the fan in compartment behind fridge is not working and addressing with dealer now (boy does it get hot behind there!). First boondocking trip coming up so will be curious how it works on LP only. Look forward to reading and contributing where I can!

Ahoy and welcome aboard! The entire family isn't quite ready for the trip from NW to SE to Disneyworld but one day we will! We have a 2016 and the fridge appears to hold up pretty good and that additional fan mod is in our to-do list

[weirdstuff]

Wulfraat.....Can any brand of bike rack be attached to the top of that storage system? I have a Thule system on my car, and wondering if I can take it off the car and mount it in on top of the storage system that you have. thx.

[Fred L]

Have tried doing some searches on the AS forums for information regarding weight distribution hitches for a 23D. Maybe instead of which one is better, possibly a suggestion as to which weight set up is best for a 23D. Will be towing with an older model Toyota Land Cruiser 07. 6500lbs GVWR and 650 tongue weight capacity.
Was looking at the Equalizer 6000 (although the Equalizer site came back with a 12000 ?) and Reese is the other brand I was considering, but am open to thoughts. Sorry to drag this apparently flammable topic here, but most everything I read were for 27's - 30's.

[PKI]

Step 1 is to estimate your ready to travel tongue weight. Search Switz's posts for his experience. Others will likely help too. Pat

[Troutboy]

I tow with Jeep Grand Cherokee, 7200 and 700 tongue, I use equalizer and it works great. Not sure which equalizer, but I think 10,000

[Wconley]

Originally Posted by Fred L

Have tried doing some searches on the AS forums for information regarding weight distribution hitches for a 23D. Maybe instead of which one is better, possibly a suggestion as to which weight set up is best for a 23D. Will be towing with an older model Toyota Land Cruiser 07. 6500lbs GVWR and 650 tongue weight capacity.
Was looking at the Equalizer 6000 (although the Equalizer site came back with a 12000 ?) and Reese is the other brand I was considering, but am open to thoughts. Sorry to drag this apparently flammable topic here, but most everything I read were for 27's - 30's.

Since my only experience is with the Blue Ox hitch I have no comparison between it and other systems. However, I'm happy with my choice which was the one recommended by the dealer. As measured at a CAT scales and loaded for travel - meaning full LP, 1/2 tank fresh water and empty holding tanks, representative provisions, our Blue Ox with 1000 lb bars transfers 120lbs off the truck and back to the trailer. Tongue weight dropped from 760 to 640 lbs. So if ours is a typical setup you can expect from other hitches you will be right at the limit of the Toyota. Our total trailer weight was 5840 lbs.

[EarStreaming]

I'm on the other spectrum with wconley. Have only used equalizer 10k with 1k load bars towing with 2014 VW Touareg Diesel at #7700 tow and #770 tongue.

[switz]

Use the Hensley Arrow hitch system I still had from the 25FB traded in on the Classic. Works well with the 2007 Mercedes ML320 CDI tow vehicle. One does not have to lift the rear of the tow vehicle plus the front of the trailer to attach the Hensley, so there is much less wear and tear on the jack.

Our three fan plus a blank out plate for the top access hatch of the 23D refrigerator space forces all the air to come in the bottom access hatch and pass by the cooling coils and pickup the exhaust from the propane fire and send it out of the trailer. That system worked well for the stock Dometic as well as the new freon based Dan Foss compressor Vitrifrigo refrigerator.

The single fan Airstream installed just brings air around it from outside the top access panel and there was no detectable air flow being coerced to come in the bottom access panel for cooling that space.

After extensive modifications, the literature tongue weight of our 2015 23D International Serenity (always understated in Airstream literature) of 720 pounds became 928 pounds with full propane and fresh water tanks and fully loaded for camping.

Tongue………928
Front….1,280……1,246 - total front axle 2,526
Rear…..1,376……1,233 - total rear axle 2,609
Total Axles………5,135
Total Trailer….6,063

[Fred L]

Thanks all. Really appreciate your experience, which always seems more logical than manufacturer info and specs.

So after installing a WDH, how do you know what your tongue weight is? Does it require separately weighing both TV axles and trailer tandem before installing the hitch and then again after?
Switz, not sure I followed the specs you provided. Presume the tongue weight of 928 was reduced after hooking up with the WDH ?

Had read in the WDH threads that the Henley was close to 200 lbs, haven't done my research yet, but I was a bit hesitant even going with the Equalizer which I believe is closer to 100 lbs (honestly trying to reduce weight off the hitch, it seems counter intuitive to add this much weight), but again experience proves otherwise.
I guess the reason I first asked this question was because I was torn between the 6000 and 10000 Equalizer. Was going with the 10000 until I read something about torsion/stress on the trailer frame and rivets, by too stiff / heavy-duty of a WDH.
Will take a serious look at a Hensley.

Thanks again. Looking forward to joining in, but will keep it to a minimum until I have an AS parked in the driveway.
(after reading about leaks and rotting floors...my original thought of a BigFoot, Oliver or Escape is creeping back into consideration). The mind says fiberglass, but the heart says aluminum.....classic battle.

[Troutboy]

I am not an expert here, just a lame environmental engineer. I don't think it's accurate at all for tongue weight to be reduced by a WDH.

Tongue weight is tongue weight. And the hitch weight is added to it.

The WDH through moments and torque can even out loads across axels, but if your tongue weight is 800 pounds, it is always 800 pounds on the hitch.

Is this right? If someone feels that tongue weight can be reduced by a WDH I would like to see a credible source or reference that states this.

Thx

[PKI]

Equalizer = stiff = bad for Airstream
Equalizer uses friction which resists sway, but also resists return to follow
Can be problematic when backing tight, but more likely an issue with clones
Easy to hook up - Lots of people like them and they do work

The Propride is a great hitch. Just wish it was made with titanium (100#). There are some quirks, but easy enough to mitigate and the learning is offset by the superior performance. There is even a concept that the longer shank gives a leverage advantage that reduces the applied weight. Unfortunately, the mass does not go away and the flexibility needed to not shake the AS excessively returns that weight in a dynamic event.

Tongue weight does not go away when WD is applied. The weight is shifted, but the force required to move it remains. A structure is impacted by force. It may come from gravity, road shocks, or a WD lever. Weight capacity may be established because of a structure, suspension, bearing, or abuse limitation. Understand what is driving the 650# limit and optimize your rig to accommodate, change or live with it.

If you allow your tongue to be higher than rating, might well need to reinforce the hitch receiver. All possible with after market or custom. Understand the capability of your vehicle. A vehicle constructed for off-road or passenger use is not towing specific. Those are different requirements and the design includes compromises with respect to towing. Tires, shocks, solid bushings and other components can make a real difference. Note, speed reduction mitigates the need for a lot of compromise.

We use static measurements to predict dynamic forces. It works, sort of. Just understand, lighter in the ends is better, lower is better, longer wheelbase is better, stiffer structure is better, and understanding the compromises is priceless.

Leaks and rot. New ASs have sealed seams. Old ones can be sealed with penetrating sealant. Storage inside under cover is a good idea. The sealant needs to be watched and maintained. Keep the water out. An AS will last a long time if you take care of it and it can be rebuilt if you don't. The plastic options are great trailers if they work for you. For many folks, an AS is the wrong solution. If it's right for you, a lot of smiles come your way. If it's wrong - do what works for your lifestyle, budget and RV abilities. Note - small can be just right.

Good luck with your investigation. Pat

[wulfraat]

Originally Posted by EarStreaming

x2! Wulf, that is the first time I've seen a setup like that on a bed. Could you provide the make and model of that platform where the bike sits on and is that drawer part of that platform? I'd greatly appreciate the info, TIA!

DECKED system.... www.decked.com. Really well engineered, very high quality and the price was very reasonable for what you get. Custom fit for your particular truck bed.

Based on my personal experience I highly recommend the system if you are looking for well organized dry storage in your bed with the flexibility of still having a bed to work with. In my case as you can see I added T-tracks so I could mount my Thule bike rack....

[wulfraat]

Originally Posted by Troutboy

Wulf!!! Man that is a sweeeeeet ride. Haha. I thought I recalled you stating you would never get a pickup!?!?[emoji12]

Now I have major envy between you and Ronnie (GMFL). Love that rack system and storage.

Does the genny fit in as well?

How do you like the trimmings in the cab of the truck.

Need to hookup soon.

Little Honda 2000i genset fits just fine on the elevated bed in front of the bikes no problem... but that will be short lived as I am planning trip to OR to visit Lewster for a large lithium bank install in the spring

[wulfraat]

Originally Posted by weirdstuff

Wulfraat.....Can any brand of bike rack be attached to the top of that storage system? I have a Thule system on my car, and wondering if I can take it off the car and mount it in on top of the storage system that you have. thx.

yes - I have a Thule rack system attached to the top of mine. www.decked.com. You buy the optional T-Tracks and the Thule has off the shelf tower mounts that fit right on. I use 53" aero cross bars. PM if you want the specific parts list.

[Fred L]

Troutboy, I never was that good at physics or engineering... Seemed logical though if it reduced weight off the rear axle and applied it to the front and trailer, that there would be less weight on the hitch? But, you could have a point there. Not sure how you could ever figure that out.
But all that said, I mis-spoke... suspect I meant less weight on the rear axle.

Thanks Pat, may take me some time to digest your thoughts, but all said, it makes me start to miss my F250.
As for the AS decision, am thinking for once in my life to go with my heart...
I don't mind maintenance, cant say I actually enjoy it, but do enjoy the feeling when it is done that everything is buttoned up. One of may passions is fly fishing and the other is bird hunting, so week long boondocking and some rough roads need to figure into my plans.
Your comment about "new AS have sealed seams", is it reference to that old seams used to be sealed and need reapplication, or that AS has made some new production changes ?
I don't doubt that in a couple years when college tuition for my daughters is done, our house is sold for a much smaller one... a new/er AS will be in my sights. I figure for now though that a good used one should either leave me wanting for more, or wanting out. Time will tell. I have an inclination that more is the direction though.
BTW, started looking at pro-pride and feeling some sticker shock.

[switz]

I have two sets of four wheel scales. The 23D's four wheels were on one set and the tongue was on one of the other set scales. The trailer had all the completed modifications on board, full propane and fresh water in the tanks, food in the fridge and the usual stuff we travel with inside the trailer. The Hensley Arrow hitch head was attached, but not the stinger which goes between the tow vehicle receiver the the Hensley Arrow hitch head. This is the loaded weight distribution unattached to the tow vehicle.

The left (or street side) is slightly heavier since all of the solar equipment (not the panels) and battery are under the dinette seat and sofa seat without loosing any of the factory storage or the use of the slide for the sofa bed. The Vitrifrigo refrigerator was about 40 pounds heavier than the Dometic and the Truma AquaGo comfort instant on water heater is about 60 pounds lighter than the stock Dometic water heater when the Dometic is full of water.

Since the Hensley Arrow is Jim Hensley's first design and sells for much more than the ProPride which is Jim Hensley's second design, I would recommend getting the ProPride. I used the Hensley Arrow because I had it in my garage as a take-off from our first trailer, the 2013 25FB International Serenity that was traded in on the Classic which got a ProPride hitch.

There have been a lot of refinements between the two Jim Hensley designed hitches and the ProPride is better built in most areas and slightly easier to work with and install.

I do not have a CAT scale receipt with me in the mountains, but I know from experience that using a 3" measurement on the Hensley lift arms is the only setting I need. The Mercedes can have one 2,000 watt propane converted Honda generator, one Solaire propane stainless steel grill, one set of 23D tools, the tire wedge in case of a flat, the two ZipDee chairs that have matching fabric to the 23D awning and our jackets, computers etc. plus my wife and I in the front seats. None of the axle ratings or tire ratings are exceeded. I run the 23D and Mercedes tires at 44 psi.

This is how our 23D got to it's current weight:

Modifications & Repairs to 2015 23D International Serenity

The 2015 23D International Serenity came with no "AIRSTREAM" name on the back of the trailer, plastic protective film still attached to the interior curb side rear aluminum panel, defective installation of toilet and shower, bathroom door stops installed on wrong side of door, one eye brow shade had broken strings. Replacement required both since ½" folds were now 1" folds.. One wheel bearing set scored when checked with less then 2,000 miles due to lack of grease. Other three were marginal on grease so all were repacked during the modifications. Replaced countless rusted screws from salt air. Repairs to shower, toilet area and pantry drawer. Replaced defective cabinet door hinge. Put a metal trim piece on bath sink vanity top to keep from being cut by the formica.

Installed 15" SenDel T03-56545T wheels and Michelin LTX (P) 235/75R15 XL tires with Centramatic wheel balancers #200-221, Dill 1506-453 TPMS
Installed Tekonsha Prodigy RF brake control head on front of now empty battery box.
Installed auto adjusting drum brake upgrade and four sets of Timken bearings (#4 and #17 bearing sets and #441151 seals) built a larger spare tire carrier
McGard 24138 Chrome Cone Seat Wheel Locks and McGard 64010 Chrome Bulge Cone Seat Style Lug Nuts

Maxim skylight with white frosted lens installed
Two MaxxFan 00-7000K fans installed
Truma "AquaGo comfort" instant on water heater installed with custom external door hatch
Installed 10" Rocky Mountain mattress with their fitted sheets and a handmade in Vietnam quilt
Installed all available Airstream stainless steel parts
Flooring replacement with Marmoleum Vivace (hole worn by dinette table leg in stock flooring in 2000 miles)
Brass wear plate installed under dinette table leg
Carpet runner from Instanbul, Turkey trip
WiFi Ranger, XM/Sirius and Verizon MiFi antennas installed
Voyager wireless rear camera installed with lighted power switch on rear roof locker
Winegard Rayzar autotune TV antenna replaced crank-up TV antenna
Lengthened under coach sewer storage for three flag poles
Added rosewood paper towel holder by the door
Installed Rigid Industries LED reverse lights with manual switch by door or reverse on tow vehicle
Rewired all electrical outlets to Hubbell 20 amp GFI
500 watt solar system with Magnum MSH-3012 inverter, Blue Sky 3024iL solar controller and 300 amp-hour lithium battery, Magnum ME-ARC control, Blue Sky IPN Pro remote control
All original storage intact under sofa and street side dinette seat as well as bed slide out as total solar system is under it
New main 30 amp circuit breaker panel and new six circuit sub-panel
Power outlets added to rear storage area, both hanging closets, in furnace air return space under dinette, rear of trailer
12Vdc cigarette outlets in hall and front under dinette
Special 12Vdc power outlet behind refrigerator for Viavir 450P portable air compressor
Special blocking plate w/3 fans to cool refrigerator
Added front outside power inlet with automatic transfer switch
Custom Hickory panels for ship's clock and solar controls, Converted to a Hickory dinette top and added a Hickory lift up side table by the sink, made Hickory spice rack like in Classic
Added magnetic stainless steel stove side splash
Added cast bronze 1940s design “AIRSTREAM” above stove side splash
Custom curtains made by a friend
Replaced all plastic cabinet catches with brass ball catches
Power on/off switch for subwoofer
Installed Dometic CU434 stove and Vitrifrigo DP150i refrigerator (with magnetic stainless steel door panels)
Modified center support web under bed to make more accessible storage plus LED lighting for that space
Installed fold-up cup holders on both sides of the bed

Camping Ready 23D my scales 9 May 2016 Full water and propane tanks

Tongue………928
Front….1,280……1,246 - total front axle 2,526
Rear…..1,376……1,233 - total rear axle 2,609
Total Axles………5,135
Total Trailer….6,063

Tow vehicle is a 2007 Mercedes ML320 CDI built in October of 2006 and has a 3.0L V6 turbocharged diesel with 221 HP and 398 ft pounds of torque between 1,400 and 2,200 rpm. It has a seven speed transmission and is AWD.

[PKI]

Originally Posted by Fred L

-- snip -- Not sure how you could ever figure that out. -- snip -- passions is fly fishing and the other is bird hunting, so week long boondocking and some rough roads need to figure into my plans.
Your comment about "new AS have sealed seams", is it reference to that old seams used to be sealed and need reapplication, or that AS has made some new production changes ? -- snip -- some sticker shock.

Hitch loading is a dynamics problem and takes a bit of math modeling to be specific. Lucky for most of us, the static measurements get us good enough.

Fly fishing - there is group that posts from time to time. Brag a little.
Rough roads - check in on Traveling Man's "Tell me where to go thread". He likes gravel roads and the back woods.
Rough roads to hunt and fish - not ideal for an AS - rivets pop/shear - slow helps - blocks and ramps may be needed for clearance. Some folks add a lift kit.

The new Airstream coaches have the tape shown in the picture sandwiched in the seams. Older coaches had sealant smeared on the seams from the inside. Captain Crawley's creaping crack sealer does a good job sealing seams. Pat