...you'll see that during the manufacturing process there are many areas where the coating is disturbed. I took the tour in 2003 and at least 4x in 2005 when I was at the factory for service. Not once did I witness any type of coating repair or replacement to disturbed areas.
Am I correct in my perception?...
YES, agree completely and again THIS was covered in great detail early in this thread.
they are essentially building houses with prepainted plywood, that is cut, nailed and hacked together...
withOUT applying any final sealer or top coat when done.
that's why MOST of this is seen along cut edges, rivet holes and places where crap is attached to the shell.
i think the factory GETS THIS now, but just will not acknowledging it...
what they are doing is applying acryl-r in places they didn't used to...
like along cut panel edges, and where the segment protectors are mounted and so on...
still EVEN if they sealed the entire assembly, during USEAGE the coating would get nicked during travel....
where i have known nicks and frequently wax/sealed, there is no corrosion....
wheels, tail lights and door handles and hinges are another rusty issue....
cheers
2air'
"climate controlled storage" is a misleading concept,
and there are MANY examples of classic cars stored in this manner that are ROTTINg...
so don't assume indoors is a good thing, since it depends on how that indoor setting is concocted...
__________________ all of the true things that i am about to tell you are shameless lies. l.b.j.
we are here on earth to fart around. don't let anybody tell you any different. k.v.
I feel lucky that our '04 Classic Limted does not have these issues. A friends '06 Safari SE does though, the wheels and the taillight lenses. Trailer lives in western MA, but does not go on the road in winter.
Wonder why some are bad and others remain fine? in similar climes?
Dan
I took delivery of my 2008 27FB International in December of 2007. At that time I saw no sign of any of this corrosion. However, a couple of months ago, I started to notice the corrosion veins at the edges of a couple of panels, and on the tail light cast housing. I finally got a chance to contact the factory thinking that I would be covered under my warranty.(How foolish of me) I spoke to a Mr. Jim Parrett who is a Senior Customer Relations Representative. He told me that the corrosion issue is not covered by my warranty and sent me a repair procedure for the cast aluminum pieces which I am attaching for the info of this forum. In questioning him about the edge corrosion, he said that it was not feasible to repair those edges because the Alcoa finish did not lend itself to being sanded, blended and re applied like a standard automotive clear coat would be. He suggested that I spray those edges and any other places where it occurs with Corrosion X. Corrosion X is a corrosion inhibitor that comes in a spray can. It is sold in just about any boat store or marine supply house and I actually had a can in my garage. He said that the occasional application of the Corrosion X would stop and prevent the spread of the corrosion. Well, I went out and immediately sprayed my edges and corrosion spots with it. I will post the results of that as a little time passes. Mr. Parrett did say that even though he cannot warranty my problem, that if I take it in to the dealer and give them his name he would authorize them to refinish the cast aluminum tail lights as a "Good Will Gesture".
I live on the Texas Gulf Coast about 30 miles from the gulf and about 3 miles from Upper Galveston Bay. We do not get any salt spray where I live, and since we only get 3 or 4 days a year that are at freezing there is never any salt on our roads. My trailer has been washed monthly or after each outing whichever occurs first and it has already been waxed twice since I took delivery. There is no way that there is corrosion showing up this quick because of environmental issues or lack of care on my part. I am of the opinion that it is caused because they do not do anything to protect the cut edges or rivet holes after assembly, and it brings out the Texas Redneck in me for them to suggest otherwise. I may have fallen off the turnip truck, but it wasn't yesterday! If my tow truck (which is 4 years old and has no corrosion anywhere) had this problem during the warranty period, I would have sent it back to GMC and made them repaint it or give me a new one! I will attach some before pictures of my corrosion areas for you folks to see, and I will post some after pictures when I see how the Corrosion X works.
If there is going to be a class action, count me in. I think that for the money we pay for these trailers they should at least be covered for the 2 year warranty period!
Are Alcoa and Airstream using best available means to avoid corrosion?
In this discussion of corrosion problems, many owners find it difficult to believe that their unit has been exposed to sufficient salt to initiate corrosion.
Many trailers are not used or stored within a few miles of the ocean or near roads that have been treated with freeze-supression chemicals (MgCl, NaCl and similar), and so some find it difficult to believe they have ever exposed their unit to salt.
However, the atmosphere provides sufficient supply of chlorides to help initiate metal corrosion even away from sea- and road-spray.
Right now I'm in Saudi Arabia on a research project, and even many kilometers inland in this very dry location, research studies show significant available atmospheric chlorides to initiate several corrosion processes whenever moisture is available.
In much of the world, there is sufficient atmospheric pollution from industrial processes and fuel-burning sources, not to mention airborne dust carried up to several thousand kilometers, to provide atmospheric chlorides for corrosion to start.
This has been well-known for years and has been heavily studied. One often-cited journal article discusses how this happens: "The Influence and Importance of Daily Weather Conditions in the Supply of Chloride, Sulphate and Other Ions to Fresh Waters from Atmospheric Precipitation" by lead author E. Gorham, 1958, London ( citation: http://www.jstor.org/stable/92505 ).
Another study discussing aluminum corrosion from atmospheric chemicals, but not specifically discussing coated aluminum, provides some good background on the process chemistry and aluminum purity, along with other citations: "Studies of long-term weathering of aluminium in the atmosphere" ( ScienceDirect Login )
Try a Google search on "corrosion results of atmospheric chlorides" to find more references.
Note that it may take only one event of moisture with available chlorides to initiate a filiform process head on a susceptible surface.
I would venture that there are few places in the USA where there will be insufficient available atmospheric chlorides to prevent moisture (from dew, rain or washing) from initiating corrosion.
If exposure is unavoidable, what, if anything, can be done to reduce or eliminate filiform corrosion from starting, and what can be done to stop or slow initiation once it does?
Again, the aircraft industry has a substantial body of research, and in prior posts, I provided some references to these practices.
Therefore, I believe the main question (and the subject of a new thread may be) whether Alcoa and Airstream are using best available industry practices throughout their production cycle to avoid corrosion formation.
If Alcoa and Airstream ARE using best available practices, then it would be reasonable to conclude that there is nothing that they can be expected to do differently, and when we make the choice of buying these trailers we are implicitly acknowledging this.
And if they ARE using best practices given that some filiform corrosion may be inevitable, then a related issue is whether potential customers can reasonably be expected to understand the consequences.
However, if they are NOT using best practices, are they aware of what these best available practices may be, and are they attempting to improve these practices to avoid the problem in the future? As customers we may not know these answers, but they go to the heart of the issue.
From my research on the aluminum industry and Airstream, I believe that at the time my trailer was manufactured in 2000, Alcoa and Airstream used reasonable care in manufacturing and processing the materials that went into my trailer. I do not feel cheated by someone not doing a diligent job at material selection, processing or assembly.
Wishing that my trailer would not have filiform corrosion will not make it go away. I can only attempt to stop more from forming, and to try to understand the corrosion mechanisms.
That's where I've put the bulk of my mental Airstream efforts, along with trying to inform others on this forum about research and experience relevant to the issues.
Now, back to rebuilding the belly after two years.... but that's another story.
I agree and somewhat disagree. If best practices are being followed by both companies, and this is just the way it is, that should be noted to the customer, in which case, I'd find it shocking anyone would by a $30k+ unit with the ability of this to happen starting as early as 6 months off the assembly line.
If either or both are not following best practices, then there should be some restitution for current owners with this problem, particularly if you are still under warranty.
From the sound of what 2Air posted, new attempts at controlling this issue is being done. How successful it will be? I suspect we'll all know once the new models that are being purchased (if they are being purchased in this economy) and folks post here.
I think the answer, at least as far as I am concerned is that the coatings need to be replaced if disturbed at the time of production, however I am keenly aware that Airstream got out of the clear coating business. Which then brings it back to the coating. If the coatings were in tact, then most of the issues we're talking about here might not be as severe. A clear coat or plastic coat over the bare alum would prevent this from happening if kept sealed...or at least that's how I see it and I welcome anyone to show me how this might be incorrect.
Any way you look at this though, it's just not good by any means.
Having worked a fair while to understand that epoxy encapsulation of wooden boats is destined to have membrane penetration somewhere, everywhere -- I really can't believe that clearcoat won't be compromised when draped around an edge or subjected to any number of sand impacts at speed.
One can almost say that there is no such thing as a pure aluminum surface in our atmosphere. Aluminum is softer than glass but use a coke can to scrape frost off your windshield and you'll scratch the glass. That's because the surface of the can is actually a very effective abrasive, aluminum oxide. (thanks carguys) It would be interesting to learn how this certain oxidation plays into the manufacturing process and adhesion of clearcoat.
Except I still think that Eric's issues come down to whether it's possible at all to have a permanent bond of clearcoat to aluminum. The results with new trailers would suggest no durable coating and that the expected 6, 8 or 10 year failure might be linear and already start before year one. It's time they came up with better solution or else make clear statements if that's not achievable.
However, the atmosphere provides sufficient supply of chlorides to help initiate metal corrosion even away from sea- and road-spray.
In much of the world, there is sufficient atmospheric pollution from industrial processes and fuel-burning sources, not to mention airborne dust carried up to several thousand kilometers, to provide atmospheric chlorides for corrosion to start.
Therefore, I believe the main question (and the subject of a new thread may be) whether Alcoa and Airstream are using best available industry practices throughout their production cycle to avoid corrosion formation.
If Alcoa and Airstream ARE using best available practices, then it would be reasonable to conclude that there is nothing that they can be expected to do differently, and when we make the choice of buying these trailers we are implicitly acknowledging this.
Marshall, thanks for your well stated post. While some pollutants have been cleaned up since the 1970's, a lot haven't, and now we get stuff from a rapidly industrialized China reaching the US.
If someone were to sue Airstream or Alcoa, the defense would be they were using the best practices available. The argument would then turn to whether there were other, better practices and whether the defendants knew about them, or should have known about them, or whether they could have discovered them with reasonable effort. It's not enough to show damage. No doubt worldwide pollution would become an issue as well as more local questions—such as the amazing increase in MagChloride in recent years and how it affects everything. So far as our implicit acknowledgment that there's no better process, the plaintiff will argue prospective buyers should have been warned.
And its all academic as they say since there ain't gonna be any lawsuit and Airstream couldn't care less.
That's pretty much the whole deal: I have a friend with a less than five year
old coach that looks thirty; the word was they screwed up on prep & clear
coat. Airstream did not cop to any of it; he sold it at a massive loss.
I live about 4-1/2 blocks from the Pacific Ocean. I suppose that I get some salt air here. So it is salt and oxygen. I just spent this weekend washing and doing my semi-annual waxing. Something very interesting occured to me---the filiform is pronounced on the belt-line/waist-line, however it is non-existant on the upper seam. My conclusion is that whatever Airstream is doing on the waist-line seam they aren't doing on the upper seam. (Or vise-versa). I don't know if this epiphany has been covered before, but it is very interesting. Why not above, yet it happens below. I would assume that the exposure is at least the same on the upper portions of my trailer. As for the Corrosion-X/Boeshield-9 application, I have both and prefer the Boeshield-9. I apply it with a Q-tip wherever I see or suspect filiform. It seems to give a wax type coating. I also have filiform around the taillights---like many others.
I live about 4-1/2 blocks from the Pacific Ocean. I suppose that I get some salt air here. ---the filiform is pronounced on the belt-line/waist-line, however it is non-existant on the upper seam. My conclusion is that whatever Airstream is doing on the waist-line seam they aren't doing on the upper seam. (Or vise-versa). Why not above, yet it happens below. I would assume that the exposure is at least the same on the upper portions of my trailer.
Randy Bowman
Somewhere in this long thread I believe I mentioned that salt near the ocean is in aerosol form as a natural consequence of wave action. That means you can consider it as essentially very fine dust which can blow inland much further than only 4 1/2 blocks. That dust settles everywhere and happily dissolves in water, whether that water is, for example, rain, wash water, or overspray from sprinklers. As to why the lower part of the seam is more affected by the resultant salt solution, the probable answer is fairly simple: gravity. The salt solution runs down off the top of the seam and happily collects on the lower part. If that solution then dries and the process repeats itself, you can end up with quite a nice deposit of salt to help oxygen eat its way between the coating and the aluminum.
It is not just that the salt helps the oxidation. Once there is a place where the filiform has lifted the coating off the aluminum, any salt solution, which seeps into the thread of filiform corrosion, dries and crystallizes (a normal process) thereby lifting the coating further off the aluminum and allowing more oxygen in. That process will repeat itself with each wet/dry cycle.
I have no overspray from sprinklers and absolutely NO filiform above. I can't believe that it is salt spray on the lower portions only. If I had a tiny bit of filiform on the upper parts of my trailer I could buy that idea, but there is NOTHING in the way a filiform above. Sorry to shoot down your theory. Seems like another answer is out there.
I have no overspray from sprinklers and absolutely NO filiform above. I can't believe that it is salt spray on the lower portions only. If I had a tiny bit of filiform on the upper parts of my trailer I could buy that idea, but there is NOTHING in the way a filiform above. Sorry to shoot down your theory. Seems like another answer is out there.
Sure there may be another answer. Despite that, the aerosol form of salt is simply dust composed of extremely small salt crystals. When you wash your trailer or it rains, that dust will dissolve in the wash water or rain and run down the sides of your trailer. It can then collect on the belt seam. Repeat that process several times and you will concentrate salt at that location. I say "concentrate," but that is not saying that there are large white crystals of the stuff there.
I have no overspray from sprinklers and absolutely NO filiform above. I can't believe that it is salt spray on the lower portions only. If I had a tiny bit of filiform on the upper parts of my trailer I could buy that idea, but there is NOTHING in the way a filiform above. Sorry to shoot down your theory. Seems like another answer is out there.
Bambi,
The person I talked to at Airstream told me that the belt line seam is the only place where the panels are trimmed or cut to fit during assembly, therefore it makes sense to me that the reason the filiform mostly shows up on the belt line is because it is the only place where the Alcoa coating is disturbed during airstream's manufacture, so you would think that they would do something to protect that cut edge !!!
The person I talked to at Airstream told me that the belt line seam is the only place where the panels are trimmed or cut to fit during assembly, therefore it makes sense to me that the reason the filiform mostly shows up on the belt line is because it is the only place where the Alcoa coating is disturbed during airstream's manufacture, so you would think that they would do something to protect that cut edge !!!
Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding....bingo! Give this post an award!
jdh350: That makes sense to me. I also agree with you that if that is where the coating is disturbed, then they should take steps to cure the problem, especially since they know that it makes alot of us ticked off.
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