Corrosion problems with new Airstreams

[dmac]

Originally Posted by VIKING

Does filiform corrosion take place on uncoated aluminum?

I've heard differing opinions of weather this is the case or not.

Dmac, are you sure that aircraft are not clearcoated? I don't know how Boeing and Other aircraft manufacturers deal with this issue, but I'm certain that they have been over this ground before.

Aircraft are either painted, or left bare aluminum. Planes often use 2024 T-3 aluminum for skins. The skin is treated with alodine and alumiprep, primed with epoxy strontium chromate, MIL-P-23377, then painted with 2-part polyurethane paint. The paint is shiny, and does not use a clear coat on top. Unpainted surfaces on some small planes are just polished and waxed, just like with a polished trailer. I don't know what the airlines do.

My 1960 Beechcraft Debonair airplane, now 49 years old, only has one spot of corrosion that is about the size of a dime, which I keep covered with LPS-3. Also, the inside (unpainted side) of the skins still look new.

[tpi]

Would there be an interest in a primed/painted trailer..painted with high quality silver metallic paint? For the case of discussion lets say a no cost option.

[Silvertwinkie]

I would not be objectionable to a painted Airstream, as long as it looked like Big Al's trailer.

My thing though would be to take it to P&S and have 'em strip it and re-seal it. I am betting it would last longer than the factory finish has and keep the trailer looking original. One perk to stripping and re-sealing is that once re-sealed, most of the areas that Airstream opened up during the construction process would be closed an not allow as much of this to happen, which is sort of my main argument that Airstream just needs to bite the bullet and treat these trailers on their own. I mean the auto industry does it, why can't Airstream via Thor? Automakers don't get pre-painted body panels and assemble them. They build the car to a point, prime, paint and finish. Airstream is taking pre-coated sheets, disturbing the coating and the end result is what we see here.

If say GM built this way, there would be lots of clear coat and paint breaches that would allow corrosion in the form of rust to begin. Seems to me this was a really great idea Airstream had getting the sheets pre-treated, but in the end, in retrospect, it has not. IMHO the alum has not delivered on the promise Aloca has stated. Is that Aloca's fault? Airstream's? I could care less, I just want a finish that lasts, with little to no issues for between 5 and 10 years....longer would be better, but I'm not greedy.

[tpi]

Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie

Airstream is taking pre-coated sheets, disturbing the coating and the end result is what we see here.

And this is it in a sentence. How do you propose riveting the trailer together without disturbing the coating? Or realistically stop wear and tear from flexing, expansion, object strikes, etc, from opening up tiny gaps in the coating at the attachment points? By design our trailers will corrode in suitable conditions.

This is one reason why I think frequent washing and application of acf 50 to rivets, as a preventive measure prior to damage, is very likely to minimize damage of trailers near the ocean or used in salty environments.

At least by painting we can prime, and have a more easily repaired finish in the case of local failure.

[Silvertwinkie]

Originally Posted by tpi

And this is it in a sentence. How do you propose riveting the trailer together without disturbing the coating?

At least by painting we can prime, and have a more easily repaired finish in the case of local failure.

By treating the finish after it is built in a similar manner to that in which the auto industry assembles and finishes their vehicles. I don't disagree that paint will be a far better serviceable finish, but it would be my last resort since paint is not the same as exposed alum.

I know that even treating the finish post production still may yield a finish that degrades over time, but my point is that if properly maintained, it is not unrealistic to get more than 6 months or 1 year as the current methods in place seem to provide to a significant and growing number of new Airstream customers. Look at the work P and S does. You think a well cared for Airstream after P and S finishes it looks as bad as the new Airstream units that are about a year or two old? The answer is they don't. Why? They seal the RV post production. If P and S can do it, why not the factory itself? Do you think P and S is not liable or held to the same environmental issues that faced and face Airstream? Let me tell ya, there are few differences between Airstream and P and S in the eyes of the EPA, so again, why can't Airstream do what P and S does to their production trailers rolling off the line?

My guess is that it's a money issue. Airstream didn't want to invest in a whole post production clear or coating facility and at the time Aloca's solution made sense. Flash forward 10 years and materials and technology have changed since 1999. I find it difficult to accept that a more suitable solution to post production coating could not have been found by now. At this point we have nearly 10 years of trailers with this Aloca coating, which does seem to last, if the coating is not disturbed, which we all know that it's impossible not to distrub the coating during production, so why keep doing the same thing? I think it's simply a cost issue and fools like us continue to buy the new units, even knowing the issue is out there. There is very little motivation for the company to fix the issue if there are still buyers out there. Until Airstream gets their heads out of their behinds, P and S is going to get a LOT of business and frankly at some point, Airstream is going to feel this issue come back to bite them....just as Harley-Davidson did years ago.

[ROBERT CROSS]

ST

The record skipping again?

[SRW]

"........My guess is that it's a money issue. Airstream didn't want to invest in a whole post production clear or coating facility and at the time Aloca's solution made sense. Flash forward 10 years and materials and technology have changed since 1999. I find it difficult to accept that a more suitable solution to post production coating could not have been found by now. At this point we have nearly 10 years of trailers with this Aloca coating, which does seem to last, if the coating is not disturbed, which we all know that it's impossible not to distrub the coating during production, so why keep doing the same thing? I think it's simply a cost issue and fools like us continue to buy the new units, even knowing the issue is out there. There is very little motivation for the company to fix the issue if there are still buyers out there....."

I agree completely with your comments.

Also, the whole question of Airstream production methods, or lack thereof, contributing mightily to corrosion becomes even clearer when you read in the following add that Alcoa guarantees its wheels against filiform corrosion:

"On ordinary aluminum wheels, a coating is typically a layer of
baked powder that sits on top of the wheel surface. But, with
Alcoa Dura-Bright® wheels, the patented treatment actually
penetrates the aluminum, forming a protective barrier that
becomes an integral part of the wheel. It completely eliminates
the cracking, peeling and filiform corrosion common in coated
wheels."


SRW

[Silvertwinkie]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

ST

The record skipping again?

What are you talking about Bob (click) what are you talking (click) what are you ta (click) what are you.....

[dmac]

Originally Posted by SRW;680070Also, the whole question of Airstream production methods, or lack thereof, contributing mightily to corrosion becomes even clearer when you read in the following add that Alcoa guarantees its wheels against filiform corrosion:

[FONT=&quot

"On ordinary aluminum wheels, a coating is typically a layer of[/FONT]
baked powder that sits on top of the wheel surface. But, with
Alcoa Dura-Bright® wheels, the patented treatment actually
penetrates the aluminum, forming a protective barrier that
becomes an integral part of the wheel. It completely eliminates
the cracking, peeling and filiform corrosion common in coated
wheels."

Dura-Bright appears to have been around since about 2004. They also use Dura Brite on truck fuel tanks. Perhaps it could be used on an Airstream. I can't find any description of what it is though, other than the marketing hype.

[safari 28]

Well, since my last post I have been called a busybody, angry, bitter and I am sure more offline.

Still ,the thread is full of people trying to figure it out other than A/S, and it is just impressive to see such loyalty and pride. Its enough to make a grown man cry. The problem is A/S knows this,the culture of the company is one of we have no competition and and the customer drinks the kool aid and follows with blind loyalty. They know you all are worried about warranties, and parts and god forbid the secret gets out to the rest of the industry. Why, that pride of going down the road and passing a sob is just not the same. NOW THEY know we got ripped off as well. We all know it, but keep it in the family.WELL, So does A/S. Now I may be a busybody, but I am not an enabler. Our family has a dysfunctional member with bad habits. Intervention is the cure folks, not head in the sand denial.

I ended my last post with it is tough love. Since then I have called or written over 10 financial institutions to stop lending or at least be warned about new A/S products. I find the younger loan officers are willing to investigate as risk is a real issue for them these days. I have posted on 3 other rv forums and now trying to get to european versions as well. It seems A/S is following the cigarette companies of kill the domestics and move abroad.

It looks likes me and big can of wd 40 have a date with some rivets. Pitiful.

[VIKING]

Hey! this is a great idea, after all.

Lets see if we can get the banks to stop loaning on Ford and GM too! They don't get it right as much as I'd like them to either.

In fact, the banks seem to screw us as often as they can. Lets see if we can put them out of business.

Reminds me of an old saying, "DON'T THROW OUT THE BABY WITH THE BATHWATER".

Unless there's something wrong with the baby, of course.

[xrvr]

Why do you think you have the right to determine if someone wants to buy an AS? Like I said before, let as many people as you can know about the problem [I agree with you] but you cannot take away someone elses right to choose to buy or not. Do not try to be like the federal government and feel as if you have to decide what is best for the rest of us. Being a busybody is not necessarily bad. Even if you could convince a loan company not to deal on AS, when the applications start coming in the loans will be approved. Keep up the pressure on AS about this issue but do not take away someone elses right to choose... jim

[xrvr]

My AS looks fantastic on the inside! Although I donot like the outside appearance and personally think something should be done by AS, I DON'T CARE WHAT OTHERS THINK!! Do you? perhaps that is part of the problem.. jim

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by zigzagguzzi

.. I DON'T CARE WHAT OTHERS THINK!! Do you? jim

Kind'a

[Silvertwinkie]

Originally Posted by zigzagguzzi

My AS looks fantastic on the inside! Although I donot like the outside appearance and personally think something should be done by AS

Jim...what model and year Airstream do you have? Do you have any description of the issue relating to corrosion of a new(er) Airstream (2000 to present model year)? If you do have the issue, can you post any pics of the problem?

Also, Safari28, when you go get your unit, can you also post descriptions of the problems and also pictures. I realize you are away from your trailer by a significant distance, but when you finally get back to it, can you remember to take some pics and post your findings, good, bad or otherwise?

Thanks!

[1cericks1]

I like this thread and think if you have a lot of time, there some valuable information you can glean from spending 4-5 hours reading from start to finish. There may be a reason that about 1/4 of the posts in this thread are from the same person. Here's my take on why there's not more people jumping on the bash-Airstream bandwagon. The average new (2004 or later) airstream owner probably fits into one of three categories:

1 - Paid cash in full - he or she recognizes that the $40 to $80K, had it not gone toward the airstream might be invested in the market would be worth two thirds today ($25 to 50K). The $10 to 20K lost in depreciation, use, and/or corrosion, seams reasonable, particularly if they've had a good trip or two.

2- Financed part of all of it (when they could have paid cash) - he or she wishes they paid full in cash. That $52,000 left in stocks is now worth $30,000. If I (I mean he or she) had just paid the damn thing off the $52,000 would be worth about $40K a year later, or $10K better than that same pile of dough is worth sitting in the stock market.

3- Financed part or all of it and couldn't really afford it (not much different than many homeoners today). Barely enough savings/income to cover the interest/loan payment, and wishing they didn't owe $50K in a loan on an asset that's only worth $40K today. Regretting they did not buy an older one and incrementally put in sweat equity/$ as time/finances permitted.

I guess that in general the Airstream, even if we overpaid and even if it depreciated in value quicker than we hoped, looks better than the alternative investment options Perhaps many of us think the return we received, in terms of life experience, relationship building, family bonding is better than the expected 7% financial return we should have earned in the market.

I run a retirement community and when a single resident gets angry and complains endlessly, they often say, "you mean I have no vote in how this place is run?" I remind them they can vote-- with their feet-- some take me up on the offer and my quality of life improves, others do not because they've made complaining part of their lifestyle. The optimistic residents accept their sacrifices and make the most of their new friendships and relationships with family.

I think Airstream owners by nature are optimists. They look at the glass half full, and appreciate the return on their investment in terms of the quaility of life enhancement and don't fuss over the minor sacrifices. Owning the coolest trailer on the market when they could have paid less for something far larger and fancier inside is enough for them.

If my airstream develops the corrosion issues, I'll sell it once the appearance of the outside bothers me more than I enjoy using it. Anyway that my 4 cents on why this thread has a few vocal zealots, a number of people who monitor for entertainment, and a lot of members who probably never bother to read more than a handful of the 800 posts.

Cheers,
Craig

[Silvertwinkie]

Originally Posted by 1cericks1

I like this thread and think if you have a lot of time, there some valuable information you can glean from spending 4-5 hours reading from start to finish.

Interesting perspective....we're all entitled to our opinions.

But I will be honest, the categories are somewhat meaningless because we're not here discussing the ownership types, we're discussing a production problem. In the 4-5 hours of reading (which is being compiled) you'd find far more than a few folks here who have what I consider a defect and a significant defect of a unit. If you choose to call them, us or I a zealot, so be it, again, opinions are not being suppressed here, but I fail to see the benefit of this particular post other than a jab or to incite. If this has humor content for you, that was clearly not the intention. The intention was to gather info. I'll admit as some threads do, they stray, and this one is no exception, but I am the thread creator and of course I have a vested interest in it's course, which is probably why you referred to one poster as having about 1/4 of the posts.

Enjoy the comedy hour here if that is your goal, but please don't belittle the situation, it's not a laughing matter.

[1cericks1]

Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie

Interesting perspective....we're all entitled to our opinions.

But I will be honest, the categories are somewhat meaningless because we're not here discussing the ownership types, we're discussing a production problem. In the 4-5 hours of reading (which is being compiled) you'd find far more than a few "zealots" here.

Okay, well I'll make an amedment to my post. I do think that the "zealots" (as I might have overexaggerated) provide an important role. Without a doubt the longest thread on airforums has to draw significant attention in the company, even if Airstream management is not directly addressing them. While the complainers in my retirement community do take up a lot of time, they keep me on my toes and keep me from getting too lax with the resident concerns.

I do think this thread must be causing some behind-the-scenes action on the part of Airstream. For liability and cost reasons we're not seeing the direct outcome of that attention, but I suspect all this energy will (or perhaps already has) improved quality of their future product line. So the time invested in this thread is adding or will add value for current and future airstream owners.

[OB Bambi]

As 1cericks1 stated above, I have to think that it is obvious that Airstream is completely aware of the corrosion problems. They won't admit anything because "it could be used against them in a court of law." I am sure they have a lawyer present telling them that. In the mean time, I as I previously have stated seemed to have arrested the corrosion by waxing the daylights out of my AS---especially at the waist line.

[cakey]

Being in a position where I am looking to buy a UK 684 Airstream , and the fact I have emailed Airstream and asked for their comments , 3 weeks and no reply . Pretty much sums up the comments on this thread that Airstream do not care . You cannot ignore the fact there is a problem with corrosion. Yes some people are very vocal with their views , but if i was pulling a giant silver SCAB down the road believing I had bought the best money can buy , I would be shouting from the rooftops.
What is strange how people can buy a $50 item from costco and take it straight back and demand a refund when it does not deliver or fails . The dye runs on a shirt ( not the 100c wash ) Spend 2 hours on the phone demanding compensation as it ruined their night out.
Something is not quite right this item is $75,000, I for one am not a t shirt wearer that pays homage to the Airstream gods . Can someone please explain why I have had no reply and when I have asked my dealer to give a 5 year warranty on corrosion , he was like a cat being sick ( they always walk backwards) . If I was at Airstream and knew it was a localised problem and only 1% of owners , I would be the 1st to post.