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Old 08-05-2008, 10:08 PM   #477
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I am the friend Carol mentioned that just bought an 05 CCD from Foiled Again.

Variables - this Unit was located within 3 miles of the Eastern Seaboard Ocean.

Had been sitting in Storage for over a year.

Paula had the rear lights replaced - they were at least 50% subject to corrosion.

The Door hinges as well as the wheel rims have untreated corrosion - (on my list of things to do.)

Also opening up the window guards revealed corrosion on only one of the actual window frames - that will need a little bit more than elbow grease buffing out.

I was not aware that this is such a big issue until reading this thread.

I would think the problem lies with Alcoa company - and possibly a group or class action could be administered for either compensation or actual replacement of panels and or aluminum items.

Trailers are considered "vehicles" and as such there are quality rules and regs beyond the manufacturer to the product suppliers or a combination there of.

It would result in a "Recall" situation be it warranty or not. Reasonable wear and tear can be touted but I am sure with enough evidence gathered - this problem would not be considered reasonable wear and tear.

Between the Forum and WBCCI there should be enough "media" to enable some sort of petition to be circulated. And with any public out cry - enough voices spoken will and has moved mountains.....
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Old 08-06-2008, 01:14 AM   #478
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hi gt1963

while the issues relating to SKIN corrosion involve panels made by alcoa...

the wheels/rims tail lights, door hinges and other bits aren't supplied or made my alcoa...

some of these corroded bits (which ARE annoying) aren't even aluminum.

IF the issue was ONLY on skin panels as clearly shown in carols pics,

it would better support the notion (which i favor) that HANDLING the panels during construction is the issue...

but when all the trim bits, rims and others parts ALSO have surface corrosion (which isn't all filiform)

it really dues support the beliefs that air and road salt exposures are common cause and ubiquitous.

cheers
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Old 08-06-2008, 05:40 AM   #479
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Originally Posted by lewster View Post
I've got it too, on my '06 19CCD. I noticed it at delivery, but the dealer said they couldn't do anything about it. It was just one more reason that the CCD never saw the dealer after delivery.

I have replaced BOTH tali light bezels, and have a noticeable white area on the entry door grab handle.

When I spoke to Airstream tech support, they said that the handle is mounted to the outer skin from the inside and can't be removed for polishing unless you remove an inner panel.......AIN'T HAPPNIN'!!!

Anyway, I think I might have a solution to this problem. I was speaking to the marine tech guys where I rent my office space and was describing my corrosion problem. One looked at the other and the BOTH said.......ANODES!

I'm going to try one on the bottom of the trailer in a couple of weeks after I clear up and re-polish any areas I find, and we'll see what happens. Worth a shot anyway!
Hi Lew; First, slow down a bit Lew before you do more damage than you already have. It is not as simple as you may think. There are vast number of reasons as to why this is happening, and until one determines the true cause, let us involve some experts on this issue. While I have a considerable extent of knowledge in Marine Corrosion, I would first like to lean on my buddy Mark who is a chemical research engineer with
L------. The reason for putting thing on hold is, that while Electrolysis and or galvanic corrosion may speed up the deterioration, there may be other issues involved. On my own, I would like to bet that material's chemical composition plays a major role. You should know by now that demand for aluminum has greatly increased lately. Many car components are made of aluminum as well as the bodies. Much of the aluminum today is recycled.
At times it is difficult for smelting establishments to separate impurities such as "zinc" known as white metal. When aluminum contains any impurities, the problem will start in that specific area of contamination as a galvanic reaction. Second area that will show in is in diminished contact area, which is at rivets and joints where tiny amount of electrolysis will try to bridge the poor connection by removing material from one surface and deposit it on the adjacent spot with weaker connection than that of solid material itself. Dissimilar metals can start galvanic reaction which can assist electrolysis to travel into other areas. First we need to determine grade of aluminum used in those units, and determine it's chemical properties. If it is contaminated there is nothing one can do about it. Until then, one must be very careful what type of zinc we can apply. RULE NUMBER ONE, zinc must be made of less noble material than sheet aluminum itself. It must be not be placed directly on the skin [it must be isolated along contact surface and be bolted with best conductor possible. Hard zinc will eat away the aluminum in the contact area, and unless it is less noble than aluminum, it will not work. Second issue is proper grounding of the zinc. Tires isolate the trailer from ground. Trailer jack in most times will not provide a good ground. Although I have plenty of experience in marine applications, I have not experimented with objects out of water. It would be interesting to see if a milliamp reading can be obtained between different components of the trailer, especially after long drive in the rain. When time allows I will seek help from my buddy Mark. Till then hold up with installation of the zinc Lew. Thanks, "Boatdoc"
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Old 08-06-2008, 06:12 AM   #480
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There is no way to guide the effects of a sacrificial zinc without an electrical connection; eg, immersion in seawater (electrolyte) as in salt/marine applications. See ABRACADABRA's post in http://www.airforums.com/forums/f458...air-19735.html.

Other threads of interest are http://www.airforums.com/forums/f381...ion-16229.html and http://www.airforums.com/forums/f381...act-26282.html.
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Old 08-06-2008, 06:42 AM   #481
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While I too would love some real solid reasons, to be honest, and it should come as no surprise, why exactly are we the ones that have to diagnose and find a solution to Airstream's issue anyway?

Oh right, I forgot, they don't have any solid game plan for this other than clear nail polish and some alleged treatment at the factory which also is not proven yet IMHO, which continues to suggest masking the issue rather than finding the root cause at the manufacturer level. Lets not also forget that warranty claims are being refused on this as has been suggested here on this thread and forum.

I find it interesting that anyone can accept the idea that the outside could/should be able to do this level of damage (and yes, in my mind this is damage to the finish) in such a short period of time. Is it me? Am I nuts? Would all of you accept a car, house, boat or anything else you pay top dollar for to reveal this kind of issue or some sort of defect that the company that built it simply walks away and leaves you to find these solutions on your own. What if in some cases you saw things happen to a different product at only 6 months old, or even before you bought the item? You really would still buy the product or accept the warranty answer like some here have said they have received (or in reality didn't receive)? Even the alum rims on my GM truck corroded and GM gladly,without question replaced them. The one place where they put the wheel weights, it showed up again on one rim. They replaced all the rims nearly 3 full years after I bought it. The truck had been in mud, snow, salt, ice, etc. No questions asked, new rims, in and out in one day. Before you say, yea, well that's GM, they dwarf Airstream. Remember, Airstream is part of Thor, and Thor is one of the biggest, if not the biggest RV builders in America. No owner of a Thor product, let alone their flagship/signature product should receive this kind of lackluster QC or attention IMHO.

I really hope this thread opens a few eyes, both at the consumer level and at Airstream. At about 480 posts and slight over 28,000 hits/views, it would give me pause. This is just a travesty and outright wrong. But it can only continue if folks out there keep accepting what is being turned out.

If sales start to slip and this is a noticeable contributor to any sales slide, I promise you, it'll get the attention is deserves, but it won't if we keep accepting the status quo.

I have made several attempts to get the factory to respond and to date, have heard nothing from Dave Schumann whom I tried to contact a few times via a few different methods. I know the factory folks are on this forum and have read this thread, yet again, communication? Nope.

Love the product. Dislike the quality and for my money, would still own/buy another Airstream, but I can say, without question, any Airstream I may buy in the future, will be a pre-owned one. I can't see spending money that will evaporate over the first three years for something new with this level of possibility of having this single issue, let alone the barrage of QC issues. You've seen the pics, you've read the stories. The decision, in the end, is yours.

Soapbox off.
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Old 08-06-2008, 07:20 AM   #482
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At times it is difficult for smelting establishments to separate impurities such as "zinc" known as white metal. When aluminum contains any impurities, the problem will start in that specific area of contamination as a galvanic reaction.
Boatdoc, very interesting post. If some of the aluminum is contaminated and some isn't, and Alcoa and Airstream don't know one from another, that could contribute to the reason some trailers have corrosion and some don't. Would you agree?

While the tires isolate the trailer from the ground, the body is the ground for the 12 volt system. Auto electrics have always been somewhat mysterious to me, but they all use the body of the vehicle as a ground. That would seem to me to create the potential (electrical pun intended) for electrolysis. Another factor would be minor shorts in the system. With all the wiring in the trailer, much not protected well causing insulation wearing away, shorts could contribute (auto wiring seems better protected than Airstream's) from what I can see. I had a short in the battery disconnect system on a pretty new trailer. The jack may not be a particularly great contact with the ground, certainly not as good as a 1/2" thick copper rod driven 5' into the ground as you may see outside your house under the service entrance, but it is a contact. I have no expertise in this, but wonder if all these things plus some salt and water can cook up corrosion.

And, just to look at this thing a bit differently, what if Airstream is concerned and does read this thread (I have reason to believe they do), but is as confused as all of us are? There may be a conflict within the corporation between suits who want to circle the wagons and those who want to solve the problem. The politics within may be as complex as any other corporation. The corporation is no more monolithic than the Forum.

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Old 08-06-2008, 10:10 AM   #483
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Boatdoc,

Great post and thanks for your concerns! I never did get around to 'anodizing' my CCD, so no worries there. I am looking into different methods to relieve existing filliform now present on the trailer....specifically how to remove it, blend it with the rest of the finish, and re-coat it so it dissapears, drawing on my 35+years of metal refinishing and polishing from the jewelry business.

I'll re-post when I hit a home run!
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Old 08-06-2008, 10:23 AM   #484
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And, just to look at this thing a bit differently, what if Airstream is concerned and does read this thread (I have reason to believe they do), but is as confused as all of us are? There may be a conflict within the corporation between suits who want to circle the wagons and those who want to solve the problem. The politics within may be as complex as any other corporation. The corporation is no more monolithic than the Forum.

Gene
If I hadn't started the QC threads and clearly seen trends where things like caulk in the bathroom showers that leak and the issue traverses many model years, I'd agree with you, but it would appear to be more of the same old routine back in Jackson Center.

My take is if they can't solve it or significantly limit it's effect, they should not be in the business. My concern is with my purchase as are other owners. I could care less about their internal political structure. As a cash paying customer, I expect a quality product for the price paid. I pay them to work out these issues in advance. Unfortunately it would seem to me that many of us work out the issues as we go along, thus perpetuating the dysfunctional product we see today.

My whole point is that we have options. If we collectively read this and say, it won't happen to me if I buy a new one, you may be right, but you could also be wrong and it's a hefty price tag if yer wrong and moreover unless we read these things and still jump in, we are in fact ourselves part of the problem for letting them get away with it for so long, as well as the industry at large.

PS- This issue has been around for at least 5 model years. I think that is more than enough time to collectively pull their heads out of the sand.
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Old 08-06-2008, 12:10 PM   #485
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If you want to get results from someone you perceive as an adversary, it is best to understand how they do things and how they think. That's the best way to get them to do what you want. The threat of litigation sometimes is necessary to get action, but it's not an option to be put out there unless it is meant as a possibility. I find that usually talking things over with the potential adversary solves the problem. If that doesn't work, a letter to the president can help. Since I don't have to hire a lawyer, I admit I have something of an advantage when I send a letter since my letterhead says I'm a lawyer. When I have an issue with a company, it never has to go further than that. Before retirement, working for a client, hardly anything had to go to litigation. I realize some people hired me because I knew how to solve problems and they could not—maybe because they were too emotionally involved to act in the best manner (proving, never be your own lawyer is wise advice, even if I don't follow it myself), or they just didn't know how to negotiate with others. That is, I think, not that common a skill.

To understand how to have the company respond, one has to understand what's going on in the company. As American Indians would say, to hunt the bear, you have to be the bear. A lot of well informed people who have commented here can't figure this out definitively; maybe Airstream can't either. That doesn't mean they should not have. Maybe they've tried a lot of things in good faith and none have worked. Maybe they have been after Alcoa and Alcoa keeps telling them they've solved it. If it's Alcoa's fault, Airstream is a victim too. Maybe it's in the recycled aluminum as suggested as a possibility by Boatdoc, then Alcoa, Airstream and many of us are all victims. Some people get a lot of bad panels, others get a few, some get none. I'm not sure anyone fully understands the effects of Mag Chloride—it's being used more and more in recent years and maybe it has some special nastiness to aluminum, or the clearcoat used, or in zinc contaminated aluminum, or whatever. I'm not defending the company, but until you know what's going on, it's hard to solve it.

It is possible that Thor's general counsel has advised the company not to admit anything. A lot of company lawyers do that. I don't agree that is the best policy because it tends to come back and bite—companies which publicly say, "we are aware of the problem, we are doing all 'these things' [fill in the blanks] to solve it, we have fixed many trailers, we are doing everything". They would have to work hard at that since they haven't been entirely forthcoming to date. Unfortunately no one gets to see the internal documents unless they sue the company and request them in discovery. If anyone has contacted a product liability lawyer and the lawyer has refused to take the case, I guess they were told it wasn't a good case, or the Airstream owner doesn't have the money to pay for the expenses such as testing the aluminum and whatever scientific data needs to be gathered. In some cases the lawyer will front the expenses, but there has to be a lot of money in the case to do so. In this kind of situation, I think litigation would only be cost effective for a group of owners, but apparently no lawyer has been found who believes that to be a good alternative. But, maybe something is going on in the background. Once the company believes there may be litigation, they are more likely to say nothing and only fix things very quietly—that may or may not be good legal strategy, but it is a common human response.

I too expect a quality product. It is possible their heads are not in the sand, but no one knows what to do. I think it's best to be aware this is not a simple situation.

If I had corrosion on the aluminum, I'd be pretty torqued. I'm sure this situation has been very frustrating for many owners. If I get filiform on the body I would contact the company and see what they would do. Would I eventually sue?—I can't say unless I am at the point where I would have to decide. In fact, I did have filiform on the chrome strip at the bottom of the aluminum part of the body. I told the dealer and it was replaced without question. That seems to be a lot different than others' experience, but I don't know that anyone else has reported filiform on the chrome.

Gene
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Old 08-06-2008, 08:14 PM   #486
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I do have the corrosion and I am torqued.

Bottom line once again, I don't care who's fault it is. I wrote a check to Airstream through one of their dealers. Their folks made the unit, have been making these RVs with this issue for long enough where either Airstream either hasn't done a good job with their alum supplier or they have just been plain unable to get their arms around it....either answer after 5 model years (or more) is unacceptable. Again, Airstream has even begun to stop "servicing the heck out of their customers" as they said they would on their own forum, when they had one.

To me, what you say has merit, but frankly it makes zero difference to me and perhaps the many others that have this issue with their units. Five model years or more is long enough. Politics, understanding their corp culture, etc is moot to me. It's Airstream's product, their name is on it and we pay them to build RVs. In my mind this includes solving engineering issues related to the build.

I hold Airstream fully responsible. It's up to them to work any issues out with their suppliers if in fact there are any. They have the weight of Thor behind them. There are zero excuses at this point. They can either fix it and keep happy customers or not. So far it would appear they have chosen to simply walk away from their existing customer base (be it with legal council or not--makes no difference).

At this point, there is little hope of any acceptable fix for my unit. I will own this unit until it falls apart (which it could happen sooner than later based on the construction quality I've exp) or I will trade it in on a good pre-owned. Until there is a known fix to significantly reduce or eliminate the issue, I will never buy a new Airstream again. This is my second new Airstream. Fool me once, shame on you....fool me twice, shame on me.
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Old 08-07-2008, 12:26 AM   #487
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Airstream, "Made in China"

Hi, maybe these newer Airstreams were made in China. [new Marathons "Made in China"] My plastic tail light bezels are made in Taiwan [China] and I took two of my wheels off the other day and cast right on to the inside of the wheels it says: "Made in China". Is Alcoa getting it's sheet aluminum from China?
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Old 08-08-2008, 08:47 AM   #488
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Hi, maybe these newer Airstreams were made in China. [new Marathons "Made in China"] My plastic tail light bezels are made in Taiwan [China] and I took two of my wheels off the other day and cast right on to the inside of the wheels it says: "Made in China". Is Alcoa getting it's sheet aluminum from China?
It would be interesting to see the true "origin of content" of our "Made in the USA" Airstreams. Of course they make it here, but how much of what they make it with is imported? Good point Bob! And just to confirm, I don't have a problem with foreign content, as long as the quality is equal to Airstream's represented "Best in the World" standards. Let me state it another way, I am OK with it as long as I get what I paid for and it does the job.

The Tipping Point is getting really close.
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Old 08-22-2008, 06:42 PM   #489
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Door hinge corrosion...what works for us


I can only guess how many others have this problem and how many different solutions there must be out there.

This is how we decided to address it.
I didn't want to do any damage to the panel coating so trying to buff out just the hinges didn't seem like the way to go. Plus the Dremmel tool just wasn't cutting it. Decided that the old brush-on Rustoleum method would be worth a try.
Getting off the old clear-coat, paint remover? What to use? After much experimentation decided on Mostenbocker's Lift off 4 water-based Paint Remover. After masking, brush on, let set, scrape off with razor blade scraper. It did scratch the hinges. Starting with 400 wet sandpaper,then 600 and finally 1500, scratches gone. Brush-on four coats zinc-chromate primer, sanding each with 1500, using plenty of water.
Spend the bucks, go to art supply house and get several 1/2" artists brush's.
Another four coats of Rustoleum aluminum paint, again sanding each with
1500. Seal with Griot's Paint Sealer, and this is what you get.
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Old 08-22-2008, 09:10 PM   #490
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Looks GREAT Bob!!!!!

NICE WORK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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