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Old 01-22-2008, 07:34 PM   #309
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Some Professional Advice......

You all know that I'm not an attorney , but I just had the opportunity to work on a MoHo belonging to one who happens to specialize in product liability law and class-action law suits.

Being an RVer, he was most receptive to the basics that I told him about the fiiform problems we are experiencing. I basically had a free consultation (as I was writing HIS bill for a change )

Anyway, his point was that before you can expect any type of results or even get an attorney to look at the case, you have to quantify the problem. This does not mean a long list of owners with testimonials.......but rather, cold hard facts. He suggested consulting with a firm in Annapolis, MD called Forensic Engineers.

He said that he has used them in the past with excellent results.

If you are serious about a class-action, this would be the first step. He also said that he might be interested in looking into this further.

Just a thought!
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Old 01-22-2008, 08:43 PM   #310
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Keep Me Posted

I've posted on other threads our corrosion concerns.

If Pictures or words are needed let us know!!

Getting filiform all over the end caps now also.

I'll follow this thread closely.


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Old 01-22-2008, 09:29 PM   #311
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New "corrosion forum" may be warranted

May I suggest to the forum administrator that the corrosion topic is of enough significance to warrant its own sub-forum? There seem to be enough interested participants, and the discussions could break into additional sub-forums on corrosion research, repair methods, common concerns, etc.
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Old 01-23-2008, 07:27 AM   #312
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Again, anyone interested in participating in this beyond the forums, please PM either TimeMachine or myself the following info:

Name
Address
Phone
email
VIN
Year/model
and, specific details on the issue(s) you've had, where the problem is, etc

Additionally, it would be helpful if you also included what you do to clean and wax your Airstream, as well as how often and what other steps the factory has given you to solve and/or slow the problem.

Once we have this specific info, we can include your data with ours and we can communicate offline to share what the next course of action is......

As of right now, it's time to either get really on board with this and get a seat, or step off the bus. To do this, we'll need a bit more specifics (as outlined above) that I myself would want on the open forum. If interested, please share this info with either TimeMachine or myself, we will complie it and include you in the next step. Without the PM sent to one of us with the needed data which confirms your willingness to participate, it's just a forum post in which no inclusion will take place.
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Old 01-23-2008, 08:23 AM   #313
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It appears to me that there are three approaches, not mutually exclusive, which are being promoted in this thread on the matter of filform corrosion on our Airstreams:

1. Find out ways to prevent, minimize, and remediate filiform corrosion on a trailer already in use;

2. Contribute research findings, knowledge and experience toward the forum users, Airstream and their vendors such that it may lead to an understanding of the causes of this corrosion and how to avoid it, whether by choice of materials, different manufacturing processes, etc.;

3. Identify some alleged failure(s) on the part of Airstream and/or its vendors and push for a financial settlement through legal means.

We're free to choose any and all approaches.

Some on the forum have chosen to look into a legal approach. If an adversarial approach is taken toward Airstream on this matter, what will be gained, and what will be lost?

One thing that will likely be lost is open, reasonable communications on this matter with the company and its vendors. How does that help?

And again, I ask, does anyone know of any better procedure, practice or material that would have prevented filform corrosion, even on relatively new units?

And if a better approach cannot be demonstrated as having been available, then can a case be made that there is fault or liability?

I look forward to seeing any evidence that there was something different that could be done. I haven't found it yet, and using the MIT Library (for which I have access through my work) to look into this, I have gone over several of the relevant ASTM procedures, various metallurgical journals and references, and have discussed the problem with several engineers, unconnected with Airstream, Alcoa or other vendors. Nothing I've found yet shows better methods. I'm still looking.

Please, post any web links to such information. We'll all be better off.
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Old 01-23-2008, 09:43 AM   #314
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Talk is cheap

Quote:
Originally Posted by mswartz
It appears to me that there are three approaches, not mutually exclusive, which are being promoted in this thread on the matter of filform corrosion on our Airstreams:

1. Find out ways to prevent, minimize, and remediate filiform corrosion on a trailer already in use;

2. Contribute research findings, knowledge and experience toward the forum users, Airstream and their vendors such that it may lead to an understanding of the causes of this corrosion and how to avoid it, whether by choice of materials, different manufacturing processes, etc.;

3. Identify some alleged failure(s) on the part of Airstream and/or its vendors and push for a financial settlement through legal means.

We're free to choose any and all approaches.

Some on the forum have chosen to look into a legal approach. If an adversarial approach is taken toward Airstream on this matter, what will be gained, and what will be lost?
Marshall,

I believe you have missed the basic issue and the direction of our discussion. The majority of concerned owners are looking for a resolution to the corrosion on our Airstreams and believe that Airstream (The Company) has the primary responsibility to correct the deficiency.

You have stated that the owner has the responsibilty via maintenance and that Airstream is not responsible for the corrosion.....you are in the minority, but certainly entitled to your opinion on the matter

It is true that posts have included the discussion of legal action, but clearly, that is a last resort, and to my knowledge, no legal action has been offered nor implemented. There are other methods far more effective in dealing with warranty issues of manufacturers.

lewster,

Thanks for the info. You have been one of those who have worked dilligently to solve this problem through technical and hands-on research. We have all learned from your experience. Thinking your information was useful, I relayed everything you had posted and discussed with me about potential solutions to the corrosion to my Airstream service center, including use of Corrosion X. The owner of the service center told me that "Airstream had never heard of Corrosion X" and further stated they know of no solution that they would perform under warranty. That is hard to believe considering the detailed posts you have included in this thread and elsewhere. I would hope that it was just a matter of communication, and not the other conclusion one might consider from this response.

The suggestion to professionally quantify the problem is excellent as is the referred company.

To All,

Silvertwinkie has led this crusade for all of us with this problem. I for one am going to support his effort to gather the owners, quantify the issue, develop a cohesive plan for a resolution, and then execute the plan.

I have no desire to continue to banter about this subject. If you don't believe this is a problem or if you don't believe that Airstream Corporate needs to help solve the problem, please go start another thread. If you are interested in a resolution and are tired of talking about it, please send Silvertwinkie the requested info listed in his previous post.

Thanks to all who have contributed.

John
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Old 01-23-2008, 10:13 AM   #315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TIMEMACHINE
...If you don't believe this is a problem or if you don't believe that Airstream Corporate needs to help solve the problem, please go start another thread...
easy cowboy, as long as folks are POLITE, anyone can post into this thread...

with useful (or not) info, opinions and so on....

seems you're interpreting data and the info contained here in some special way.

that's fine we all see these things from a unique perspective.

again applying terms like 'most, many, few, all' need backing of some sort...

the following is a great summary of where some of are and what some of us want from this thread...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mswartz
It appears to me that there are three approaches, not mutually exclusive, which are being promoted in this thread on the matter of filform corrosion on our Airstreams:

1. Find out ways to prevent, minimize, and remediate filiform corrosion on a trailer already in use;

2. Contribute research findings, knowledge and experience toward the forum users, Airstream and their vendors such that it may lead to an understanding of the causes of this corrosion and how to avoid it, whether by choice of materials, different manufacturing processes, etc.;

3. Identify some alleged failure(s) on the part of Airstream and/or its vendors and push for a financial settlement through legal means.

We're free to choose any and all approaches....

...I look forward to seeing any evidence that there was something different that could be done. I haven't found it yet, and using the MIT Library (for which I have access through my work) to look into this, I have gone over several of the relevant ASTM procedures, various metallurgical journals and references, and have discussed the problem with several engineers, unconnected with Airstream, Alcoa or other vendors. Nothing I've found yet shows better methods. I'm still looking.

Please, post any web links to such information. We'll all be better off.
now the problem with #3 above and some posts IN this thread...

is that this issue/process/action becomes a VENDOR DISPUTE, or very nearly so...

and my reading of the policy page is vendor disputes are NOT to be handled on the forums...

the suggestion to contact each other privately about that aspect is appropirate,

while keeping all of us updated on the process as it corrodes...

cheers
2air'
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Old 01-23-2008, 10:21 AM   #316
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invest in beet growers!

i see that some states are now adding beet juice to the road salt formulations they use...

since sugar has some of the same deicing properties as salt...

More beet juice, hold the salt

roads will get beet juice mix

this will cut down on the amount of the more aggressive salts used...

perhaps this action will limit corrosion, the early reports are favorable...

but will they get cavities instead?

next they'll wanna spray the roadways with vodka and tabasco!


cheers
2air'
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Old 01-23-2008, 10:28 AM   #317
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Some sources for aluminum corrosion research

In the spirit of open research, should others be interested, here is a list I maintain of some web links on aluminum corrosion research.

Feel free to add any...

================================
Links to aluminum corrosion research, esp. for filiform corrosion studies.
List updated 23 Jan 2008.
Maintained by Marshall Swartz, email: mswartz@whoi.edu.

NASA Kennedy Space Center - Corrosion Technology Laboratory (NASA CTL):
Publications:
publications
NASA Corrosion Control and Treatment Manual:
http://corrosion.ksc.nasa.gov/pubs/tm584c.pdf
NASA Standard for Protective Coatings...
http://corrosion.ksc.nasa.gov/pubs/nasa-std-5008a.pdf
NASA Corrosion technology links:
KSC Corrosion Technology Laboratory -- Links

Ohio State University Fontana Corrosion Center:
FONTANA CORROSION CENTER
See especially:
Current Research: Fontana Corrosion Center Research
Publications (by year): Fontana Corrosion Center Publications
Links: Fontana Corrosion Center Staff

De-icing salt information:
www.moly.imoa.info/FileLib/DeicingSalt.pdf
doc created 08 Oct 2007.

www.autoaluminum.org/downloads/corpub.pdf
doc created 28 Feb 2002.

Corrosion Protection practices for automotive repair industry
www.i-car.com/pdf/upcr/procedures/cp/cp01a.pdf
doc created 25 Aug 1998.

German Window association discussion on architectural issues with filiform corrosion of aluminum:
www.window.de/pdf/al01e.pdf
doc created 13 Jun 2001.

Boeing Corp Technotes
www.boeing.com/companyoffices/doingbiz/environmental/TechNotes/TechNotes2000-02.pdf
doc created 01 Mar 2001

Protection of aluminum alloys from filiform corrosion using low temperature plasma treatment.
linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0300944005000056.html

Corrosion Clinic:
Different Types of Corrosion: Filiform Corrosion or Underfilm Corrosion - Its Causes and Prevention

Journal of Corrosion Science and Engineering:
JCSE Volume 2 Paper 36
submitted 13 Sept 1999.

Boeing Corp: Design for corrosion:
Aero 07 - Design for Corrosion

NST (National Surface Treatment) Center for NAVY and DOD:
What is Corrosion

NST Mitigating the effects of soluble salt:
http://www.nstcenter.com/docs/PDFs/T...ble%20Salt.pdf

ASTM Standard Guide for Assessing Filiform Corrosion Resistance, Article D2803.
ASTM D2803-03 Standard Guide for Testing Filiform Corrosion Resistance of Organic Coatings on Metal
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Old 01-23-2008, 10:48 AM   #318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2airishuman
easy cowboy, as long as folks are POLITE, anyone can post into this thread...

cheers
2air'
2air,

I did ask politely, I did say please. And you are right, the forum is for everybody to offer their opinion and advice, however, the thread starter, Silvertwinkie, was asking for support to get Airstream to acknowledge the problem and do something about it for the owners who have recently purchased units.

If you don't see me posting on this thread, that is because I will be doing something about the corrosion on my Airstream besides talking about it, or rallying, one of the two.

cowboy time
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Old 01-23-2008, 05:38 PM   #319
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I stand corrected on surface coatings Joe.

I hope litigation isn't the only solution. It's ugly, expensive and a last resort and something I tried to talk clients out of many times. Sometimes the threat works, sometimes not. It like diplomacy and war—the latter is the potential that usually leads to settlement. No one enjoys "litigation anxiety".

Lew's lawyer customer is correct—you've got to have your facts lined up though it's usually the lawyer who sets up the engineering firm (we know who we like). There are lots of such firms, some good, some not. Check references and specific expertise.

Gene
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Old 02-09-2008, 01:08 PM   #320
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General Comments

2008 models are out and Airstream has not corrected the corrosion problem. Three weeks ago I was at Bates RV near Tampa. He has a large number of Airstream's on his lot. I didn't look at all of them - maybe about a dozen - but at least 75% of the units I looked at had corrosion on at least one of the curved panels. Some of the trailers he took to the Tampa RV Show also had it.

Today I went to the RV show in Ocala. Sanders RV from Alachua was there and they had 5 units - all 2008. On three of them there was corrosion on at least one of the curved panels including a 17' Sport - the first Sport I've seen it on.

Anyone who orders a 2008 should give it a very close examination before accepting delivery from their dealer.
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Old 02-09-2008, 02:05 PM   #321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al - K4GLU
2008 models are out and Airstream has not corrected the corrosion problem...
...
Anyone who orders a 2008 should give it a very close examination before accepting delivery from their dealer.
were they using either of these new warning labels submitted to the marketing department?



cheers
2air'
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Old 02-11-2008, 09:26 AM   #322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS
I've posted on other threads our corrosion concerns.

If Pictures or words are needed let us know!!

Getting filiform all over the end caps now also.

I'll follow this thread closely.


Bob
Spilled battery acid outside the battery compartment will look exactly like your one picture.
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