Dan's '66 Tradewind Improvements

[TouringDan]

Originally Posted by Slats

Dan -


You convinced me that your way is the way to go solar.

Hey Slats, I provided a more detailed write up of my 200 watt simple portable solar system in the solar section FYI. I certainly agree with your above statement when the cost is so reasonable and it is so relatively simple to do. Also when you are getting “free” electricity from the sun you can use some of the stuff that you would not use if you just had batteries like that 120v cooling fan, the Dometic compressor fridge and the rice cooker. All three of these items run easily off the 1000 watt inverter.

Dan

[Slats]

Originally Posted by TouringDan

Hey Slats, I provided a more detailed write up of my 200 watt simple portable solar system in the solar section FYI.

Can you post the link?

[dbj216]

Correction: We will camp at the Ouray county fairgrounds, in Ridgeway. I don't plan on pulling our Airstream on highway 550 to Silverton, but I do hope to drive it. We will visit many of the cities in southwest Colorado. We are hoping for reasonable weather. There has been nice July rains in southwest Colorado that has diminished the wildfires.

Good advice on an extra battery or two. I will have my generator, but I don't know the generator rules yet. I hope I can run it for a few hours every day. Many people consider generators in the same category as barking dogs. I fully understand.

Don't be driving the million dollar highway (550) in a snowstorm. The folks who keep that highway plowed in the winter deserve a lot of credit. Nerves of steel it takes.

David

[TouringDan]

Originally Posted by dbj216

.



Don't be driving the million dollar highway (550) in a snowstorm. The folks who keep that highway plowed in the winter deserve a lot of credit. Nerves of steel it takes.



David

David

My son is quite familiar with Colorado so he sent me on the scenic route. Thank god I was driving north. New car with new tires but not snow tires and I don’t think I had any chains with me. It was a major snowstorm. I was so thankful that I made it to Ouray. The next day I found out that they had to close the road due to an avalanche- about 2 hours after I had driven it. Yikes! I now have snow tires and travel with chains in the winter when I am in snow country.

You certainly won’t have any battery problems if you can run your generator a bit each day. Just don’t let the resting voltage drop below 12.0 volts.

Dan

[TouringDan]

LITHIUM ION BATTERY & 2,000 WATT INVERTER INSTALLATION

My last improvement was the installation of a new 12 volt panel (post #216 on 7/12/18). My last statement in that post was “The electrical upgrades are now complete and I like the looks of the rear now with the two golf cart batteries, the battery monitor, the 1,000 watt inverter, the solar with two 100 watt panels and now finally a new 12 volt panel with three 25 amp blade fuses.” The first photo shows the equipment visible in the rear area.

Well that statement, which was kind of dumb to make in the first place, isn’t correct. All along I have been planning on installing lithium ion batteries and a 1,500 watt inverter so I could operate a microwave. When I last looked at lithium batteries about a year ago no one, that I was aware of, was building one the same size as the golf cart batteries that seemed to fit pretty well in my rear panel area. I had actually already selected the Samlux 1,500 watt inverter because of its compact size and features.

My Sam’s Club golf cart batteries are 8 years old and still hold a charge. Heck, we camped for 7 days in the Smokies without the voltage ever going below 12.2 volts and not recharging at all due to the tree canopy. However when we were charging the batteries I could never get them to float. I was planning on replacing them with the same type just because they were now 8 years old. Then I stumbled across the Battleborn golf cart batteries. These were the same size as my 6 volt golf cart batteries though slightly taller and with the terminals in front which I liked. There are lots of advantages to the BB Lion batteries which I am sure you are aware of. This decision was definitely not economic. Two Sam’s Club batteries cost $200; these cost $2,100, about 10 times more. Lithium ion batteries have changed everything for things that are battery powered. Stuff like battery powered bicycles, scooters and skateboards was not possible before lithium came along. I decided that I didn’t want to buy new lead acid batteries. I wanted lithium with all the advantages and I paid the price.

This thread is about improvements to our Tradewind to make it the best and making it so it meets our needs and desires. This is why I paid a premium price to install disc brakes and install lithium ion batteries.

My lead acid batteries were heavy so I had built the support from 3/4” plywood and fabricated a metal hold down bracket. The lithium’s are lighter but taller so I built a new support from 1/2” plywood and used 1” aluminum angle to hold them in place. I put a 1/8” rubber matt underneath for support. I got that idea from another AirForums member. It seemed like a good idea. Photos 2 and 3 shows the area under the plywood support and then the plywood support with the angle aluminum and rubber matt.

I was planning on installing a 1,500 watt Samlux inverter, but the 2,000 watt model was the same size so I installed it.

Installing all this stuff in a small area with 1/0 wire and a 300 amp fuse for the inverter plus a battery switch was difficult, but I got it done and I am happy with the results.

I still need to install the remote switch and display.

Dan

[dbj216]

Man, that is quite a power plant you have back there. It is very well constructed. Maybe you should nickname your Trade Wind the Bolt. I remember what my old Trade Wind looked like back there. A battery and a fuse panel. And a "univolt". Whoopee. I had already removed the battery in the photo below.

We'll be interested if it gives you the time range you are seeking. We're still very old fashioned with lead acid batteries and we get maybe 3 days boondocking with the big power user being the water pump. But no 120vAC at all. Our "devices" all go dead. Boondocking is okay in temperate weather, more challenging in hot or cold weather.

I did buy a used generator from a neighbor last year. We boondocked at last summer's vintage rally and found late afternoon air conditioning very nice powered by the generator. It was just too hot in the trailer, like 90F. There were many others running their generators too. I did asked the neighbors first. No problem they said. The Honda generator is pretty quiet.

You like the peace and solitude of the back country off the grid. Your set up will be well worth the investment in terms of camping comfort. Wally B would be impressed.

David

[TouringDan]

Originally Posted by dbj216

Man, that is quite a power plant you have back there. It is very well constructed. Maybe you should nickname your Trade Wind the Bolt. I remember what my old Trade Wind looked like back there. A battery and a fuse panel. And a "univolt". Whoopee. I had already removed the battery in the photo below.



We'll be interested if it gives you the time range you are seeking. We're still very old fashioned with lead acid batteries and we get maybe 3 days boondocking with the big power user being the water pump. But no 120vAC at all. Our "devices" all go dead. Boondocking is okay in temperate weather, more challenging in hot or cold weather.



I did buy a used generator from a neighbor last year. We boondocked at last summer's vintage rally and found late afternoon air conditioning very nice powered by the generator. It was just too hot in the trailer, like 90F. There were many others running their generators too. I did asked the neighbors first. No problem they said. The Honda generator is pretty quiet.



You like the peace and solitude of the back country off the grid. Your set up will be well worth the investment in terms of camping comfort. Wally B would be impressed.



David

David

Looking at your old Tradewind’s 12 volt panel brings back memories. I never could figure it out. I was reluctant to change mine because I had never needed to even change a fuse out in 7 years of ownership. Even though I didn’t understand the old panel I was able to install the new Blue Sea plastic panel in about 30 minutes.

The key to camping in hot weather in the afternoon is to have the Airstream pointed north and be sitting under the awning with the fan on drinking a cold beverage! You won’t find us in the Airstream!

We have a Honda 1,000 watt generator that is about 15 years old. We haven’t used it for at least 3 years. It is very quiet though and a nice insurance policy.

Dan

[Slats]

Originally Posted by TouringDan

LITHIUM ION BATTERY & 2,000 WATT INVERTER INSTALLATION

This decision was definitely not economic. Two Sam’s Club batteries cost $200; these cost $2,100, about 10 times more.

Dang, Dan. I've been pondering what batteries to buy and hoping against hope that I can ignore that little voice in my head that says, "Lithium, lithium, lithium ........". I just hate to part with that much cash. but I'm not skimping too much on other stuff, so I might as well be consistent.



We just got my Intellipower AC/DC/converter/charger and 2000 watt Cotech inverter powered up and running yesterday and now I have to get serious about a battery setup. I presently have a 12v truck battery hooked up for testing purposes and that's all I need for now. When and if I ever get the cabinets, plumbing and other stuff back in place I'll probably do what you did by way of batteries. I don't want to buy them now and start the warranty on them running before I put them to full use. And I still haven't decided whether to put them out on the tongue or inside, one behind each wheel well. Decisions, decisions.

[TouringDan]

Originally Posted by Slats

Dang, Dan. I've been pondering what batteries to buy and hoping against hope that I can ignore that little voice in my head that says, "Lithium, lithium, lithium ........". I just hate to part with that much cash. but I'm not skimping too much on other stuff, so I might as well be consistent.



We just got my Intellipower AC/DC/converter/charger and 2000 watt Cotech inverter powered up and running yesterday and now I have to get serious about a battery setup. I presently have a 12v truck battery hooked up for testing purposes and that's all I need for now. When and if I ever get the cabinets, plumbing and other stuff back in place I'll probably do what you did by way of batteries. I don't want to buy them now and start the warranty on them running before I put them to full use. And I still haven't decided whether to put them out on the tongue or inside, one behind each wheel well. Decisions, decisions.

Slats

Ever since I installed the first battery, I have never looked back. After I installed it, I thought to myself that I may not have to touch it or move it for many years. That is a good feeling.

I agree with waiting, don’t by them before you need them. Price may drop or additional improvements might be realized.

I don’t see much need to install one on each side. I would probably get one and then add another if you thought you needed it. I would install both of them together, close to the 2,000 watt inverter.

Sorry if I am costing you money.[emoji16]

Dan

[TouringDan]

INVERTER REMOTE OPERATION

I installed a Samlex 2000 watt pure sine inverter back in post #225. It replaced a Zamp 1000 watt pure sine inverter. The Zamp inverter had a remote switch that was installed on the inside of the bathroom storage cabinet door (photo 1). The Samlex inverter includes a remote switch and display. The cable connecting the inverter to the remote is 10 feet long. This was just long enough that I was able to install the remote on the outside of the bathroom wall. A quick glance and I can see when the remote is off (photo 2) or on (photos 3 or 4).

In photo 3 the inverter is turned on but there is no demand for power so the voltage is 13.4. In photo 4, I have connected a small heater, running on low, and the voltage is 12.7. The heater is drawing 605 watts (photo 5). Photo 4 also shows that the inverter is providing partial power, like one third of the 2,000 watt capacity.

When I first installed the remote switch, it didn’t operate correctly. I called Samlex and they sent me a new remote and connector cable. The remote turned out to be fine but the wire was defective. Nice response by Samlex. The warranty period is 2 years.

Dan

[dbj216]

You have your own rolling power plant. Big solar panels, big batteries, big AC inverter, and big plans for time in the woods "off grid" but power to run what you need.

There is a new home being built in my neighborhood. The builder called it an "off grid" home. It won't have electrical service to the house. It will have solar panels, a big battery (lead acid he said), and inverter. My home uses about 700 kwh a month says the electric company. The 5 horse well pump and the fridge are the biggest users. I also heat and cook with gas here. It will take a lot of sunny days to keep this new home electrified. Might be a tough sell.

I have visited some historic Colorado "miner's log cabins" while exploring the mountains on my ATV. I saw a floor, a door, a window, a pot belly stove, a table, a bed frame and that's about it. "Off grid" but not very appealing to me. It is a little like tent camping.

Electricity, I've never lived without it.

David

[TouringDan]

Well David, I am not living without it either, I am just not plugged in because I don’t need to be. Seriously, I didn’t plan on going “off grid” but after I installed my lithium batteries, I realized that my regular converter was not the best way to charge them. I just went ahead and connected a couple of 100 watt solar panels to keep my batteries charged. So far it is working fine. I am learning as I go having solar panels and these new fangeled lithium batteries. They say not to charge them when it is below 32 degrees and I believe there are provisions in the battery design that will not allow them to take a charge, but I plan on just turning them off to make sure they don’t get charged up from the solar panels.

Dan

[dbj216]

I've read in Air Forums about folks putting these high power density batteries in their trailers so they can run the AC for a week on them. They often use solar panels to charge them like you are doing. Battery technology has come a long way from lead acid boxes.

I would need to do my homework to try out a system like yours.

David

[TouringDan]

Originally Posted by dbj216

I've read in Air Forums about folks putting these high power density batteries in their trailers so they can run the AC for a week on them. They often use solar panels to charge them like you are doing. Battery technology has come a long way from lead acid boxes.



I would need to do my homework to try out a system like yours.



David

David

I don’t know how you would ever run the AC for a week but a few hours is possible, at least for me. I ran a test today to see how much of my battery capacity would be used up when I operated my 1,500 watt heater on low for one hour. Running my heater on low uses 628 watts of power (photo 1). This is a little bit more power than my AC uses. Remember that my AC unit is a small 5,000 btu/hr unit that only draws 4.8 amps or 576 watts of power. The actual power consumption from my batteries is 681 watts according to my Trimetric battery meter (photo 2). It pulls more out of the battery than the heater uses due to the power required to operate the Samlex inverter. Note that there is actually a small gain going into the batteries from my 200 watt solar panels but probably only between 10 and 15 watts since it is winter and the sun is low and it is cloudy today (photo 3). If it were sunny today I might see 60 watts into the batteries. Any how after running the heater on low for one hour my battery bank state of charge (SOC) went from 99% to 71% (photo 4). So, based on this I will be able to operate my AC for about 3 hours before my lithium battery bank is down to 20% SOC. Now this is based on running my AC on high constantly. My plan would not be to operate the AC during the day but at night to make sure we can sleep. I suspect then that we may not need to operate it on high all the time and that it won’t be running constantly. I am hoping then that we might get 6 hours minimum of operating the AC. We will see.

Just as a side note when I turned the inverter on the lithium batteries were fully charged with a voltage of 13.7 (photo 5). While the batteries were running the heater the voltage was 12.6 (photo 6).

Dan

[dbj216]

Well, you did my homework for me! Very interesting experiment TouringDan. The big thing for us while boondocking was not able to charge our "devices" like phones and laptops. I know, I know, you don't need these things while camping, and I agree. That's why mankind invented the printing press and book binders. Your system would keep these devices charged up easily.

Old Wally Byam was a pioneer in "self contained comfort" with his "univolt" Airstreams. Charge the battery while your towing and have water, lights and a vent fan for comfortable evenings. Propane energy provides the rest. Now these huge motorhomes have on board generators and big battery packs and inverters so you hardly ever have to connect to shore power.

Seems like your power pack is working well for your needs.

David

[TouringDan]

After the heater test I wanted to run a microwave test. I ran the microwave for 2 minutes to heat a cup of water. When I turned the inverter on, the voltage was 13.1 (photo 1). With the microwave plugged in the power consumption of the microwave was 0.4 watts (photo 2). At the same time the power leaving the batteries, based on the Trimetric monitor, was 44.7 watts (photo 2). This is the power needed to just keep the inverter turned on. When I turned on the microwave, the voltage dropped from 13.1 to 12.1 (photo 3). The power consumed by the microwave was 977 watts (photo 4) and the power flowing out of the batteries was 1,120 watts (photo 4). Note that the Trimetric only has 3 digits. When you are using more than 1,000 watts, you need to add a 0 to the reading. This shows that the inefficiency of the inverter is about 15% (1120-977/977. After running the microwave for 2 minutes the battery SOC went from 72% to 71%. Nothing strange happened during the 2 minute microwave test, so the test was successful.

Dan

[Jeremy9107]

Dan. Just caught on to this thread. Your solar and battery set up is making my brain hurt. It has that "I want that" appearance but don't think I would ever understand its intricacies. I am going to read this several more times to try and understand.

Cost aside, Would you recommend lithium batteries over traditional golf cart batteries if solar is not involved?

[TouringDan]

Originally Posted by Jeremy9107

Dan. Just caught on to this thread. Your solar and battery set up is making my brain hurt. It has that "I want that" appearance but don't think I would ever understand its intricacies. I am going to read this several more times to try and understand.



Cost aside, Would you recommend lithium batteries over traditional golf cart batteries if solar is not involved?

Jeremy

Glad you stumbled across this thread.

I would definitely recommend lithium batteries. I believe cost is the only reason not to go with them. Now having said that they are a different animal than the lead acid batteries. Most of the differences are positive. I am a lithium newbie along with many others but they are the way to go. We will all learn about them together as we gain experience using them.

BTW, love your taste in Airstreams. Our son and DIL have a 78 Caravanner that I was a strong proponent in them buying. I suggest you start a thread on your trailer in the Caravanner section. As you can see, looking at the limited activity in the Caravanner section, you have a very rare and desirable Airstream.

Dan

[dbj216]

Lithium Ion type batteries are way more "power dense" than lead acid type. Dan is right that they are completely different than lead acid types in terms of charging and handling. I've not used them yet. I do have a AGM battery, but it is just another variation of lead acid.

Nice looking Caravanner. I think 77 was the last year for that model. They have three windows on the street side and just one on the curb side. Probably incorrectly, I call the Caravanner 25' a Trade Wind 25' without a bedroom. It has an open layout more attuned to entertainment in my view. When the guests leave, you gotta pull out and make up the bed. The later ones are rather rare. I have a friend who has a 70 Caravanner he is renovating. He is a real skilled craftsman, like builds his own houses and the like. He has a very good shop.

David

[TouringDan]

Ok, I have switched from lead acid 6v golf cart batteries to two BB lithium ion batteries (12v). These are a lot different. Mostly, except for the price, it is all good but there is one problem where you will damage the batteries if you charge them when it is too cold, like below 32 degrees.

I have decided to try to only operate our Tradewind using only the batteries and inverter and only charge them using solar. I don’t plan on connecting to shore power. This means that to make sure I don’t try to charge the batteries when it is cold out I need to disconnect my solar panels. This is a PITA.

I figured the BMS wouldn’t charge the batteries when it was too cold. A call to BB verified this. They said that battery charging would be cut off at 24 degrees and not allowed to start back up until they were at 32 degrees.

Well, I stumbled across a Victron Smart Battery Sense. It stops solar charging of lithium batteries when it is too cold. This photo explains it in more detail.

This seemed like a good idea so I ordered one from Amazon for $38.

Here is a photo of my batteries installed before adding the Smart Battery Sense and then a close up photo of the small SBS itself.

I am waiting for some cold weather so I can test it.

Dan