Chronology of Painting My Excella 25

[Bob Thompson]

Sealing the lap seams! I finished the first sanding today and started sealing the lap seams which have voids. To prepare the seams, I'm cleaning them out using a dentists pick which I bought at a flea market. To seal the seams, I'm using a product called "Alcoa Gutterseal" which I purchased from: http://www.airstreamdreams.com/ the claim is "Unlike Vulkem or Parbond, Gutterseal wicks into seams, making it a popular choice for sealing between panels". The tube the Alcoa Gutterseal comes in has a tip that is too big to get into tight seams, so I purchased some West System #807 syringes from Boaters World. They have a nice small tip. I transfer some Alcoa Gutterseal to a syringe, then inject the sealant into the lap joint. Cleanup is with M-E-K on paper towels. The syringe can inject into openings as narrow as about 1/32". As for the product wicking into seams, it doesn't for me, I have to inject it but it is fairly easy. I'm not finished, but so far, it appears I'll be able to do most of my very small seams with a single tube of the Alcoa. It really acts like a great material and the finished surface has a very aluminum look.

Worrying that I might not be able to do it all with a single tube of Alcoa, I called a couple aluminum gutter installers to see if there was more Alcoa Gutterseal here in Corpus Christi. One installer said they use Ruscoe Permanent Seal instead of the Alcoa, and the Ruscoe is incredible but the only problem was they won't sell it to me. Searching Google using the term "Ruscoe" I found the product and its claims. Ruscoe claims it is an extremely durable "permanent" sealant for adhering aluminum to other materials. When at Home Depot, I went to the gutter department to see if they had a comparable material. Yes, it is called "Seamer Mate" and it is a tripolymer product which comes in small tubes as well as caulking tubes. Its claim: Permanent Bond Guaranteed, UV Resistant, Can Be Applied Under Water, and Semi-Self Leveling. It can be used on joints as large as 1/4" x 1/4", and it has a great aluminum look very much like the Alcoa Gutterseal.

My Airstream has a couple different sealants that were used at the factory. Sadly, the polyurethanes have not held up that well, but some of the sealants are still in great shape and they look just like the Seamer Mate Product. Permanent Bond Guaranteed and UV Resistant, now that is what I'm looking for. I'll use the Seamer Mate in all locations up to 3/16" wide. For larger seams, and there aren't many of those, I'll use the Vulkem 636 from Airstream Dreams.

For the record, I've been around sailboats and Rv's since the late 60's, and was a registered architect until I retired 3 years ago, and the only successful application of silicone sealants I've ever seen was on mitered glass corner windows in buildings. West Marine's website claims silicone adheres best to products which have "silica" in them. No silica in aluminum or fiberglass!

[silver suz]

Has anyone had problems with damaging their grass or plants from the run-off of all these chemicals? I know at Peterbilt motors the paint rooms have special filtering vents and recovery tanks for any run offs. and the people all wear major moon suits. I know there is a big difference between 50 trucks/day and one airstream, but those chemicals are REALLY toxic, especially getting in ground water. Any safer methods? silver suz.

[Bob Thompson]

The driveway where I did the paint stripping slopes one way, so all the stripping residue, and there was considerable amounts of it, went to the low side. The first day or two this residue was thick and "gummy", but as the paint stripper evaporated, it left behind only the dried particles of clearcoat. On going work in the area has crushed these clearcoat particles into small pieces which have spread out in the grass and are now hardly noticable. There has been no burning whatsever of the carpet grass (St. Augustine)along the driveway. The soil at my home has a very high PI (plasticity index) meaning it is almost pure clay and it has been raining quite a bit and the soil is fairly moisture saturated so I doubt any of the stripper soaked into the soil. When the clay is that moist, additional moisture just ponds on top.

I'm convinced the stripper remnants evaporated and were carried away by the wind. IF I read some of the dire posts about paint stripper correctly, the danger of methylene chloride is two sided. The vapors can be inhaled and the liquid can be absorbed by the skin. If you inhale the vapors in concentrated amounts, your liver processes the vapors ( or skin absorbtions)into carbon monoxide giving you carbon monoxide poisoning (like automobile exhaust poisoning). We all breath in diluted amounts of automobile exhaust every day. Imagine setting in traffic waiting for the light to change. The key here is concentration levels. Strip paint indoors in an enclosed area and you have high concentrations and it's dangerous. Outside in the wind is much much less dangerous, similar to a bad traffic day. One of my learned friends is a professor and his favorite saying is: "the solution to polution is dilution" !

Andy,
What is the difference between the aircraft primer and paint ( and where do you buy it) and automotive primer and paint for aluminum? I painted my Series111 Land Rover ( aluminum body panels) with Glasserit(spelling?) etching primer and then epoxy paint with no clear coat.It's held up well.
I certainly don't question your method, Just wondering about the differences. It's good to have someone who really knows the correct way to paint an Airstream, and is willing to share that knowledge.
Jack

[Inland RV Center, In]

Jack.

I don't know what the difference between the two primers really is.

I am from the old school.

If it's not broke, don't fix it. Also, time is the true test of anything.

Our system has passed that test, hands down. See the previous photo.

Others may have an equal to or better system, but until time has confirmed the method or materials, then I have to stand pat.

Dupont itself, cannot offer an improvement to our method.

Someday perhaps, but not today.

The time and materials involved don't warrant a research project by any do-it-yourselfer. However, if they have money and time to burn, that's OK with me.

Andy

[Stefrobrts]

I have to admit I hadn't even thought about having my AS painted, but it's sure sounding like a better idea than repolishing every couple years. Thanks for all the info you've posted, Andy. I'll keep watching this thread with great interest...

[Happycampers]

I have to admit I was wrong about self etching primer on aluminun.. Marvin

[Bob Thompson]

From the "I was Wrong" topic I picked up on the Alumiprep #33 and Alodine 1001. I found this describing what they do and how to use them:

Required Materials:
Amchem Alumiprep #33 - or equivalent cleaning and
conditioning chemical for aluminum.
Amchem Alodine #1001 - coating chemical for aluminum.

Recoating Procedure
1. Clean surface of contaminants.
2. Soak surface with Amchem Alumiprep #33 or equivalent
from 1 to 3 minutes, then rinse with water and dry.
3. Soak with Amchem Alodine #1001 or equivalent
for 1 to 3 minutes, then rinse with water and dry.
4. Primer must be applied withing several hours of applying Alodine.

So far, Ted the PPG man has not come thru so it looks like I will have to fire him and find a local airplane painter to provide and shoot the paint. I'm leaning heavily toward the paint JRA Executive Air uses, either Sherwin Williams Jetglo or U S Paint Alumigrip. Both are premium grade polyester based Urethane 2 part paints, shot in 3 coats, and do not require waxing, polishing, or buffing. They give a wet/shiny appearance, are extremely durable, and are salt/chemical resistant. U S Paint describes their paint as: A two component polyester based light-fast aliphatic high solids polyurethane coating with long lasting gloss and color retention and outstanding chemical resistance. Extremely low maintenance. Do not wax, buff, or polish!

Today, I spent some time using the Alcoa Gutterseal and the more I use it the better I like it. It wasn't as warm today and indeed, the material will wick, to some extent, into narrow gaps. It is a very impressive material.

Once the trailer is painted, I'll apply a second sealant over the panel joints, seams, and around door and window frame perimeters.

[dinoburb]

The alodine is a critical step in aluminum painting. Bare, dry, raw aluminum will immediatly begin to form a defensive barrier over itself when exposed to air (corrosion). Paint doesn't stick well to the corrosion coating and will peel in short order. Steel does a similar thing (rust) but that takes longer and can be painted without a chemical conversion coating. Alodine is a chemical designed to provide a paintable protective coating. It blocks aluminum's automatic proclivity to corrode for a short period of time.

Hope this helps,

[Bob Thompson]

Yes, it does help. We're on the same page! I pulled the plug on the relationship with Ted the PPG man. He was dropping the ball and I have a short patience level for people who don't give appropriate attention to the project at hand. In turn, I have contacted Sherwin Williams in San Antonio for a proposal to provide the Sherwin Williams Jetglo, compatible epoxy primer, Alodine 1001 (or equivalent), and the Alumiprep #33 (or equivalent) and I have talked to an auto collision repair company about shooting the paint. So far, lots of questions, not many answers. But, Paul at Sherwin Williams was going to get right on the paint proposal. And Monday, George from Collision Management will prepare an estimate for shooting the paint.

[jaco]

Bob I appreciated your post above regarding Alcoa and other sealants.
May I suggest that you duplicate it (pix and all) and post a dupe at the following thread.
http://www.airforums.com/forum...ead.php?t=7626
Caulking & Sealants (Vulkem & More) Thread # 7626

If you choose to do so could you give a more detailed description of what is on the Alcoa tube lable.i.e. stock # or sku codes etc.
I have hoped to find a spec sheet on the stuff. No luck.

Could you give me an idea of the viscosity say as compared to Elmers White Glue, or some well known liquid. i.e. thicker, thinner, about the same.

I have had no luck in finding the Alcoa product data on the web thru google etc.
There must be a source in Texas! Dallas Houston SanAntone or somewhere for the actual product..


Thanks
jaco

[dinoburb]

Bob,

Just a note on 'Ted the PPG' man. Sorry it took so long to respond to his statement about 'oil' surfacing. 'Taint so. Aluminum when dry immediatly begins to corrode, which is a self-protection mode for the metal. It is the corrosion that causes failed paint work. The surface must be properly prep'd as you are planning to do. Additionally, never mix systems. If it's Alumigrip then it's alumagrip all the way. Every manufacturer has their own specific chemistry that has been tested and proven. Mixing chemistries is a sure fire way to failure.

PolyU paint is flexible and long lasting. However, it is also a very poisonous paint which requires a full paint suit with supplied air and a enclosed hangar (booth) to contain the overspray. EPA is not very happy with polyu. HVLP is the preferred method of delivery and a good HVLP turbine spray system is about $800 and up.

I would talk to the local business jet paint shop about what they use on the jet acft they paint and where they obtain it.

Again, sorry for the late reply, hope this helps,

[Bob Thompson]

One step forward, two steps back. I got 2 proposals to paint the trailer today. One from Collision Management for $2700. They didn't even take time to look at the trailer, to look at the sanding and prep work that has been done, or to look at how much area was to be painted. Seemed like they could have aleast driven over 10 blocks to look at it. The 2nd proposal came from Rodrigez Auto Body. They sent two people over. Proposal amount $5500. And they wouldn't be able to offer a warranty because I had sanded the aluminum down to bare metal. Ha Ha Ha Haaaaaaaa! Here we call that the suntan discount! Its kind of like the Baptist Discount which is 15% over retail, except it is double retail!!! And they didn't even see the Lexus coupe in the garage. I figured it would only cost me $4950 if I pulled the trailer 1463 miles to Andy and put myself up in a motel for a week while the work was being done. Tomorrow I should get a 3rd proposal, from a guy who paints 18 wheelers and hot rods? At least he knew about aluminum. He is proposing using Imron in two or 3 coats instead of all the rest. His reasoning, Imron is ultimately more durable, and by the time you get all the rest done, you've spent about the same amount of money.

I called Aero Performance in Fort Worth to see about Sherwin Williams Jetglo. Bad news, it is not available in metallics! If you want metallics, you would need to use S-W Acryglo an acrylic urethane paint. So.. if we're back to acrylic urethanes, I can get those here.

On a more positive note, I removed the twin beds and pulled up the carpet in the back. Parts of the floor were soppy wet.....but, the plywood is solid and intact. It shows some signs of mildew, but no outright wood rot. I'll be able to dry it out then flood it with wood preservative. This is good news!

[Tarheel]

Andy you ( Inland RV) and CANAM are the only ones that I have heard of that have a history of painting Airsteams. Both of you are a long ways from the North Carolina coast. Is there anyone on this side of the Mississippi that has a decent track record for painting Airstreams that you would recommend? I know the Ruth boys do a good job on clearcoat as well as Jackson center, but I am not aware of either of them using a painting process.

[Inland RV Center, In]

Bob Thompson.

One week allowance to do a complete metallc silver paint job, "properly," is enough time to remove the exterior components, strip the coach, and perhaps, be finished with the "correct" sanding.

We require a minimum of 4 to 6 weeks for a complete paint job.

You should revise your $4950.00 cost to bring the coach to us. Regular gasoline in California is now priced at $2.20 per gallon.

Electrical suppliers are not the only "BIG" corporations that gouge.

On the other hand, only California has a "free sign up" for workmans comp.
You can get many years of free money, because you injured your shoulders pushing a pencil on a single piece of paper. But, league bowling is not considered a violation of that compensation, or for that matter, moving a house full of furniture.



Tarheel.

Most professional spray painters do not want to take on a job of painting an Airstream trailer or motorhome. Their reason is usually they don't know how to deal with aluminum. A no gaurantee job, should be adequate warning.

I do not know of anyone that I could recommend to do a complete metallic silver, east of the Mississippi.

Should you find someone that feels they can do a good job, ask them to tell you step by step, how they will do it. That usually separates the bee's from the wanta bee's.

A basic price of $170.00 per foot is a fair price, for a complete color paint job, plus any graphics. Things like awning removal, fixing dings and dents, are all extra.

Andy

[Tarheel]

Thanks Andy, I have only talked with a few outside the Airstream world and they pretty much agree with what you have said. Why isn't inland rv inland? That would make life easier for me. Rick

[Bob Thompson]

Update: Tony the Hot Rod painter gave me a proposal of $2950. I asked him what made it so high and he said he bills himself at $48/hour even to sand the trailer. I guess he meant sanding the epoxy primer after it gases overnight. Must take about 3 days to sand it! I'm almost to the point where enough is enough. By that I mean, painting isn't rocket science! I've just about worked out enough of the bugs to say I'll paint it myself.

My biggest problem is having an enclosed area to do the work. I can purchase a fabric carport on Ebay and use it as a temporary enclosure while I do the painting. I could paint the trailer in 4 sections, each side, the front, and the rear. Then just dispose of the carport when I'm done or sell it for cheap at a flea market. I have a brand new DeVilbiss Finish Line paint gun I bought two years ago when I was building a new shower for my SOB trailer and needed to shoot some Imron.

If I do the painting, I'll likely go the acrylic urethane paint/clearcoat route in lieu of the Imron route. For Imron, I'd need an air fed full face respirator which I don't have. I called Aircraft Spruce today to chech on the Randolph airplane finishing system. Bad news, Randolph was recently sold and the new owners are relocating the plant. No Randolph components will be available for at least 2 months.

I'll decide one way or the other by Monday morning. The choice seems to be Collision Management at $2700 or doing it myself.

[Bob Thompson]

Its been a busy few days since the last posting, so here goes. I've decided to paint the trailer myself. Since that decision, almost everything has been positive. The plan was to purchase a fabric carport to use as a mobile paintbooth to control overspray and contamination of the finished surface, then do the painting in 4 steps, each side and each end of the trailer being a single step. I purchased an 18 x 20 fabric canopy off ebay for $225 delivered. If it is not quite tall enough when it arrives, I will purchase longer pieces of steel conduit for legs from Home Depot to get the needed height. Then, I purchased (3)-10 x 20 tarps for side curtains at a total cost of about $65 shipped. So far, thats roughly $300 spent.

Next, I had to decide whether to use a single stage system like Imron, or use a 2 stage Base Coat/Clear Coat (bc/cc) until I came across this:
Single or 2 stage (Dick Gutman)
There are pros & cons to each system...
Two stage paint should be used when spraying metallic paint unless you're trying to make it match an original old type of look but, for even the best painters, it can be difficult to spray single stage metallic evenly.
When you spray paint on a car you are doing two things... 1. You're covering the car with color and 2. You are applying the paint so that it has a smooth gloss. When you use single stage you are doing both of these tasks with one type of material. When you do a paint job using two stage paint you are applying the covering color with the base coat and the smooth gloss with the clear coat. It can be easier for the novice to break the job into separate steps than to try to do everything with a single coating material but then again you are spraying longer and have more oppurtunity to make mistakes.

When repairs need to be made the two stage paint can be better because you can blend the base then clear the entire panel which usually results in a better repair. Blending single stage can be a real challenge and panel painting single stage can result in a mismatch.

Ok, it will be 2 stage!

Today, I went by the Auto Paint Co. and got a price of about $540 for: 1 gal ea. Dupont 225 Alum. Cleaner/226 Alum. Conditioner, 2 gal. kit of Epoxy Primer, 2 gal. kit of Chromabase silver paint with reducer, and 1 gal of Sherwin Williams clearcoat.

Similarly, I went by PPG and got a price of $380 for 1 gal Alumiprep 533, 1 gal Alodyne 501, 1 gal. Epoxy Base Primer with reducer and 2 qts. hardener, 2 gal. kit of silver acrylic urethane and reducer, and MC161 clearcoat and 2 qts Hardener.

So, if my math is somewhat correct, the portable paint booth and the paint materials come to roughly $850. Add another $150 for sand paper, masking materials, cleaning solvents, etc. and it comes to around $1000. If there isn't quite enough base coat, add in another say $180 and the total is around $1200. Works for me!

So far, my only concern is the epoxy primer. I think I read somewhere where it needs to be a chromate epoxy primer. I'll do a bit more research!

[nds]

This is a very interesting read and, with the cost (having it done) and time involved in polishing, a real serious alternative. It appears that it would be the cheaper route to go, overall, when considering the continuous polishing each or every other year to keep that high gloss look.

I'm assuming that after the initial cost of the paint job, that regular washing and waxing would keep the high gloss appearance without all the work, time, and expense involved in continuing to polish every year or every other year.

[Astrodokk]

Bob,
Before you get the chromate, read my post above and then Andy's a few later. He mentioned that mine had been done with chromate and it was the wrong thing to do. I actually have no idea what was used, since I bought it that way, yet I know it didn't work.
Just a thought before you pay. Maybe my stuff was a different primer. Good luck. I think you must have large ball bearings to take this job on, albeit the price is right!