Our Loss

[C Johnson]

Joy, I am glad you are all OK. It is surprising that you all walked away, you are very lucky. My following post is mainly to reiterate some good points and not meant to flame anyone.

I see you are with State Farm Insurance. They are known for dumping people after a large claim is settled. Second, if you accept their check it means you accept the settlement. If you aren't happy with what they give you then refuse the check and haggle with them or contact a lawyer.

Between Jcaverna and frtshaker they pretty much have a handle on the possible causes.

frtshaker, I know I will probably be chastised by many for what I am about to say, but here goes. That stretch of I40 (West of Kingman) posts signs for trucks to slow down to 55 due to steep downgrade (that's why you passed the semi).That driver was probably going slower if loaded to gross because he has been down that hill many times and knows what speed to go down and not overheat his brakes. And yes, this long haul driver is one that knows at gross my truck with engine brakes on will hold best at about 32mph without ever touching the foot brake on that particular grade. This is the same situation stated by the couple coming down Shasta. When towing, it is advisable to slow down to the posted truck speed and is also advisable on exit ramps and curves that post truck speeds. It would also be prudent to slow down more so when in curves or downhill on a given route until you know how your TV and trailer handle in the situation.

I also am a truck driver and this is a true statement.

jcaverna, The missing component that people tend to forget about is that applying the trailer brakes manually is only one part of the equation when attempting to arrest a swaying condition. In addition to applying the manual brake control, you must also accelerate the tow vehicle. This combined action "pulls" the trailer out of the sway. Applying the manual brakes alone is not the answer.

This is a difficult situation to deal with in many people's minds since the reaction of anyone in a sway condition is to back off the gas. That alone adds more sway into the equation since the trailer is now doing the pushing, much like going down a hill. You need to be pulling the trailer, and acceleration plus the action of the trailer brakes provides that "pull" necessary to get the trailer centered.

This also is a true statement as I have used this very method to pull my triples out of a sway condition. FYI the sway was caused by a combination of rutted roads and side winds.

Being a truck driver I see many many miles of road. I will tell you it is pretty rare to get passed by a TT on a down grade. Probably for good reason. I think the insurance company will probably stick to the driver being at fault in this case.

I get passed all the time on the flats by TT's, it is the hills that warrant the extra amount of caution.

Again I am glad you all survived, just remember "this too shall pass" and you will be out enjoying life again.

[tphan]

!st off, I will echo the thoughts of all the others here who are shocked and saddened by your accident, and so relieved that everyone survived it!! I hope that there evolves here a very clear, proven, agreed-upon method of avoiding these kinds of accidents. I would certainly tend to listen to the advice of any and all commercial tractor-trailer drivers, but also those TT owners who have experimented with different size/weight TVs and set-ups on their brake controllers and antisway devices. It seems to me there must be an optimal setting for the controller, that would tend to straighten out the "chain" without having to think, counter-intuitively, of accelerating while hitting the manual override. Common sense would have me agree with the idea of having the trailer brakes working a bit stronger than the TV's brakes. If it were set up this way, wouldn't this eliminate the need for the tricky hit-the-override-while-accelerating gambit? I think something very positive can come from a terrible accident like yours IF the community can learn something from it and prevent many more of them from happening. My second point is a question, maybe for a moderator: Where are the pictures that were posted? Is it a problem with my computer settings, or something here, that I cannot see them? Thanks, and best of luck with the insurance settlement and any emotional trauma! -tim

[azflycaster]

Where are the pictures that were posted?

I can see the pictures in the first two posts.

This accident is a wake up call to all of us who tow our Airstreams. I will have mine on I-40 this afternoon. Not in the Kingman area, bur Flagstaff to Winslow. I will be thinking about this accident alot.

The people involved were very lucky indeed. We can speculate all day long as to why it happened and what could have been done. The bottom line is that it can happen and it did happen. I think everyone who has seen these pictures will be thinking more about trailer safety for a long time to come.

Gardenofjoy - I hope everything works out well with the settlement.

[jcanavera]

Originally Posted by tphan

It seems to me there must be an optimal setting for the controller, that would tend to straighten out the "chain" without having to think, counter-intuitively, of accelerating while hitting the manual override. tim

Tim, I wish there was a magic setting but you need that tow vehicle pulling, to help eliminate the yawing that is happening. Without that pulling, the effect of the brakes on the trailer is doing nothing to minimize that yaw.

The purpose of the manual braking of the trailer it to maximize the effect of the pull caused by the accelerating tow vehicle.

Consider the tug of war battle with a rope. In most cases as the opposing forces pull against each other, you remain in a fairly straight line. When one side loses out, and the pulling side's force is removed due to the forward momentum of the losing side, the losing side tends to move out of the straight line.

Jack

[tphan]

I guess I was thinking that if you're going downhill (the situation where this type of accident seems to happen most often), and you have the trailer braking a bit more than the TV, then the TV's momentum going downhill with less braking than the trailer would tend to straighten out the rope. If this is not the case, then it seems to me that there is room for improvement with the whole brake-controller set-up on TTs, sort of like how the anti-lock brake improvements on modern cars made them a lot safer by reducing or eliminating skidding in panic situations. Why not a brake controller that automatically "straightens the rope"? Asking drivers, especially inexperienced ones, to hit the gas, while reaching down for the override, while watching traffic, while trying to regain control of a wildly swaying trailer, while GOING DOWNHILL, in a full-on panic situation, would seem to be asking commercial-grade skills of amateurs. I think untill I feel like I have a brake controller that will "think" for me in panic situations like the awful one here, I will heed all the advice here regarding speed. 55 mph max for me, slower on hills and in wind. Slower speed would probably be helpful with a blowout too, or any other unforeseen sudden circumstance.

[peegreen]

Originally Posted by jcanavera

The missing component that people tend to forget about is that applying the trailer brakes manually is only one part of the equation when attempting to arrest a swaying condition. In addition to applying the manual brake control, you must also accelerate the tow vehicle. This combined action "pulls" the trailer out of the sway. Applying the manual brakes alone is not the answer.

This is a difficult situation to deal with in many people's minds since the reaction of anyone in a sway condition is to back off the gas. That alone adds more sway into the equation since the trailer is now doing the pushing, much like going down a hill. You need to be pulling the trailer, and acceleration plus the action of the trailer brakes provides that "pull" necessary to get the trailer centered.

Jack

That's right on - you must keep applying the gas while fulling activating the trailer brakes. At the speed you're experiencing sway (I doubt at 25 mph you'll end up this situation) the trailer brakes should not lock up if adjusted properly) You alone, the driver should be responsible for the control of the tow vehicle and trailer. I would never want to put that responsibilty or depend on my copilot to take casualty actions.

[Wabbiteer]

It's like hearing about the King's new clothes, there are no photos to be seen on my many attempts to view even with PC restarts.. no uploads in member photos.. no links from gardenofjoy's profile... But like everyone else I am suitably awed that no one was physically hurt from the description given - I hope the memories of it fade in time for you and yours...

Question - what service had ever been performed to the tow vehicles front suspension?

On my F-150 with the last trip through a industrial suspension shop they 'accommodated' worn or broken bushings when they aligned the front end - and left it nearly impossible to steer sharp turns when at Interstate speeds when towing my 27' Overlander, which I merrily discovered on I-94 on a sweeping downhill bend coming into the Saint Paul, Minnesota Mississippi River Valley.. I had to stab on the brakes to get speed below 60mph and keep leaning on steering wheel to get it to track through the turn; it was a good thing I was in the left lane in preparation for the left exit onto I-35E!

IF a vehicles adjustments can make steering want to track straight no matter driver input... then worn or artistically adjusted alignments might make sway easily amplified... Just a thought.

[jcanavera]

Originally Posted by tphan

IAsking drivers, especially inexperienced ones, to hit the gas, while reaching down for the override, while watching traffic, while trying to regain control of a wildly swaying trailer, while GOING DOWNHILL, in a full-on panic situation, would seem to be asking commercial-grade skills of amateurs. I think untill I feel like I have a brake controller that will "think" for me in panic situations like the awful one here, I will heed all the advice here regarding speed. 55 mph max for me, slower on hills and in wind. Slower speed would probably be helpful with a blowout too, or any other unforeseen sudden circumstance.

You hit the nail on the head. I guess what I'm preaching is avoidance also. As much as I know on this topic I've never had to truly recover from this situation. It's one thing to try this on a parking lot just to see what happens, but obviously I'm in control and it's only a test. How I would perform under an emergency is something else. Unfortunately there is no trailer/tow vehicle simulators out there where we could get some intense training like commercial aircraft pilots get.

I think that's why many of us get so uppity on high speed towing because things just happen so fast and the consequences are magnified multiple times as you get over 55 mph. So we keep our speed to the moderate side, understand the forces in effect, and recognize those things that increase risk. The school of hard knocks has some painful lessons. In this case I am grateful to all the posters who share these experiences. We can't undo what has happened but by sharing these issues and stories, hopefully we can prevent someone else from going down the same path.

Jack

[azflycaster]

The photo issue is being looked at by the mod squad. It is not limited to this thread. I can still see them because they are in the cache of my PC.

The pictures show a major event. The damage shown would make you think that anyone in the TV would have had serious injury.

[neptune1939]

Originally Posted by gardenofjoy

Earl, I'm trying to understand. What evidence suggests that the primary cause was driver error. We were at the top of a hill, going approximately 55, when a semi/tractor trailer passed. Now I have to be quite honest, becuase I don't recell if we passed him or he passed us. I had tended to weight distributions (no water in tanks, no luggage in back of trailer, propane tanks filled and in front on tongue) maintained reasonable towing speed, etc. Why does this not look like a 'No fault" accident. Would pushing on the manual trailer brake have helped?

Essentially, the basic speed laws in most states force a driver to drive for the "conditions of the road at the time". This means that if the speed limit is posted for 75 miles an hour and it is foggy, it may only be safe to travel at 30-mph. Road conditions such as wind, traffic, and other road hazards set the tone for determining what speed is "safe" for your vehicle at that particular place and time. Based on your writing, if your trailer started swaying at 55-mph, "the conditions" (weight of trailer, condition of tow veh, etc.) were not good for the speed you were going, ergo-driver error. That's the way an insurance company will view the incident in determining who was "at-fault". An accident is still just that, an accident and it is deemed so since you did not "purposely" crash your vehicle. Your insurance company would still reimburse you for the loss regardless as long as you had coverage.

[nickcrowhurst]

Originally Posted by gardenofjoy

The tow vehicle was a 2003 GMC Sierra 1/5 ton

Was this a 1/2 ton truck towing the 25 foot trailer? I assume the 1/5 is a mis-print for 1/2. If so, it would be relevant to consider this aspect, one that we have discussed many times previously. The Airstream.com site gives GVWR as 7000 pounds for the SS, and 7300 for the FB.
Nick.

[Boondocker]

Originally Posted by nickcrowhurst

Was this a 1/2 ton truck towing the 25 foot trailer? I assume the 1/5 is a mis-print for 1/2. If so, it would be relevant to consider this aspect, one that we have discussed many times previously.
Nick.

Nick, I have just been re-reading this thread for the nth time trying to digest all of this. I suspect you are correct that a 3/4 ton TV might have helped. I am setting here cringing thinking about how often I have accelerated down hill with my F150 in order to buid up speed for the up comming hill. I had already decided to get a 3/4 ton and this thread really reinforces that plan. I am also starting to wonder if the brake controller shouldnt live on top of the dash where it is easier to reach in a "white knuckle" event. In my F150 I put it under the dash on the right; where do you all have yours mounted? Is the string idea mentioned earlier a reasonable thing to do?

[jcanavera]

Originally Posted by Gen Disarray

I am setting here cringing thinking about how often I have accelerated down hill with my F150 in order to buid up speed for the up comming hill.

That in itself is not always bad. It's just the other factors going on at the time, wind, speed, passing vehicles, road conditions etc. As a matter of fact I've accelerated downhill in many cases to prevent an oncoming semi, to pass me on the downhill slope. In that case the risk of the higher speed is less than the surge caused by the semi, passing by at my most vunerable point. If I do it right, he passes me as I either level out or start the next slope uphill.

Jack

[2 Winds]

I haven't been able to access the pictures but it doesn't sound like my imagination can overdo it here. I do know this thread has allowed me to relive a few whiteknuckle moments and it gives me chills. I'm glad you are all okay and thank you for sharing your experience.

One question about the physics of towing a trailer. Lots of talk here about anti-sway bars, which I use and know makes a great improvement on a single axle Tradewind. What help, if any, do distribution bars offer?

I feel the combo (on a 1/2 ton Silverado) of the distribution bars and anti-sway is considerable. At least when that side wind hits (and it will find you) the rig reacts more like one unit then as two parts. Even when a semi passes in high winds I feel it more in the center of my TV then at the hitch/tail end of TV.

[gardenofjoy]

Originally Posted by nickcrowhurst

Was this a 1/2 ton truck towing the 25 foot trailer? I assume the 1/5 is a mis-print for 1/2. If so, it would be relevant to consider this aspect, one that we have discussed many times previously. The Airstream.com site gives GVWR as 7000 pounds for the SS, and 7300 for the FB.
Nick.

Nick and Rodney,
You are correct, it was a typo. 2003 GMC half-ton with Z71 and trailer towing package. (we have now upgraded to a 2007 3/4-ton GMC duramax diesel)

I originally posted because I had some questions about insurance/fault. While the dialogue has helped answer these original questions, I realized, after reading all your responses, that the experience also seemed to help remind all of us the importance of safety, and awareness of our speed, slope, wind, other larger vehicles, etc at ALL times when towing.

Since viewing pictures seem to be an issue, below is a link to my myspace page, where I have more pictures posted.

PLEASE keep in mind I want to share my story so that other's may be reminded to be actively cognizant at all times when towing...especially going into this labor day weekend.

MySpace.com - Joy - 33 - Female - Shreveport, Louisiana - www.myspace.com/gardenofjoy

[SlimJim]

WOW!! I have read the entire thread but had not seen the pictures until the last entry. I did not understand the devastation until I saw it. God surely was with you. I don't see how anyone could have survived otherwise. I pray that it all works out for you.

[firedog]

Boy it looks Ugly.I am glad you are both ok.Look into a Hensley Hitch on your next trailer.I am a firm believer in it.I am a new Hensley convert.

[crazylev]

I too was unable to see the pictures until just now.

Yeah. This is certainly one of the worst I've seen!!! Ending up down that hill...oye vey.

It is a miracle that you are alive!!!!

Stay well, and keep us posted.

Jonathan

[ROBERT CROSS]

Just finished reading all the posts. I will echo everyone in saying how glad we are that everyone is ok!!! This thread has some very sound advice. Please all, slow down,stay aware,and be safe!!!......God bless....keep us posted.

[gardenofjoy]

I have just received 8 new photos from the police report and have added these to my myspace. I will try to add here, if I can.

MySpace.com - Joy - 33 - Female - Shreveport, Louisiana - www.myspace.com/gardenofjoy